Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > American History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

American History American History Forum - United States, Canada, Mexico, Central and South America


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old July 6th, 2018, 01:27 PM   #21
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2017
From: Connecticut
Posts: 2,011

Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMoose View Post
What set of criteria did you use to come to that conclusion? Could you not also make the argument that feudalism is more left wing due to centralization of power and republicanism more right wing due to less central power? See, I fell into the subjective trap just now.
Centralized power has nothing to do with liberal and conservative. Liberal means changing whatever currently exists, conservative means conserving it. Before the 20th century in Europe anyway being a right winger usually meant Monarchist(because this was the existing order). Federalists were closer to being monarchists than the Republicans.

Feudalism is also best known for less central power. Just take one look at a map of the HRE and you'll understand why.
Emperor of Wurttemburg 43 is offline  
Remove Ads
Old July 6th, 2018, 03:34 PM   #22
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2016
From: Dispargum
Posts: 2,496

We must define the political divide using other terms than left and right or liberal and conservative. Those are modern terms that just aren't useful in the 18th century. The Democratic-Republicans tended more toward individualism. The Federalists tended more toward collectivism. The D-Rs tended more toward decentralization and localism. The Feds more toward an activist and interventionist central government. The D-Rs were more interested in maintaining the status quo. The Feds were looking forward to a more commercial and industrial economy.
Chlodio is online now  
Old July 6th, 2018, 04:29 PM   #23

Viperlord's Avatar
Tilting at Windmills
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: VA
Posts: 7,892
Blog Entries: 22

I'd offer the view that the left/right political paradigm to a great deal emerges to describe the French Revolution and its aftermath, but the founders of the US political system, as contemporaries, were influenced by older political traditions and thought, so attempting to map that spectrum onto late 18th century US politics makes no sense.
Viperlord is offline  
Old July 6th, 2018, 11:20 PM   #24
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2012
From: Here
Posts: 4,322
Blog Entries: 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viperlord View Post
I'd offer the view that the left/right political paradigm to a great deal emerges to describe the French Revolution and its aftermath, but the founders of the US political system, as contemporaries, were influenced by older political traditions and thought, so attempting to map that spectrum onto late 18th century US politics makes no sense.
A usual, your intelligence and common sense has taken all the fun out of reading another ridiculous Historum thread.
Jax Historian is offline  
Old July 7th, 2018, 04:22 AM   #25
Historian
 
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Monza, Italy
Posts: 1,182

If I remember well people like Hamilton and Adams (Federalists) were higly suspicious of mass-democracy so that sounds like conservative (right-wing) common sense am I right? The Federalist also promoted economic protectionism (anyway this has more to do with the new-born nation situation I guess) so in the end it's almost impossible to use right/left categorizations.
Lm1985 is offline  
Old July 7th, 2018, 06:05 AM   #26
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2012
From: Here
Posts: 4,322
Blog Entries: 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lm1985 View Post
If I remember well people like Hamilton and Adams (Federalists) were higly suspicious of mass-democracy so that sounds like conservative (right-wing) common sense am I right? The Federalist also promoted economic protectionism (anyway this has more to do with the new-born nation situation I guess) so in the end it's almost impossible to use right/left categorizations.
I am not sure what you mean by "mass democracy." If you mean what we call "Jacksonian democracy" where supposedly all "citizens" vote directly for the president and their Congressal representatives, Democratic-Republicans like Jefferson didn't like that either. In the early republic there was property requirements for voting and the direct elections of Senators didn't happen until 1912.

These issues have nothing to do with "left" and "right" as we use them today.
Jax Historian is offline  
Old July 7th, 2018, 10:22 AM   #27
Historian
 
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Monza, Italy
Posts: 1,182

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax Historian View Post
If you mean what we call "Jacksonian democracy" where supposedly all "citizens" vote directly for the president and their Congressal representatives, Democratic-Republicans like Jefferson didn't like that either.
I referred more to a sort of despise for the "masses", the "common folk", the "herd", as it's expressed by Hamilton in these sentences: Alexander Hamilton Quotes About Democracy | A-Z Quotes (see especially the 4th quote).

Seems a sentiment, a pessimistic attitude toward human nature, more than a political thought, shared by conservative minds (Rivarol, Carlyle, Borges, Churchill); Jefferson on the other side often advised about the dangers of a nation dominated by a ruling elite, seems he recognized more the average citizen's role (farmers, ecc...).

Last edited by Lm1985; July 7th, 2018 at 10:25 AM.
Lm1985 is offline  
Old July 7th, 2018, 11:25 AM   #28
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2012
From: Here
Posts: 4,322
Blog Entries: 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lm1985 View Post
I referred more to a sort of despise for the "masses", the "common folk", the "herd", as it's expressed by Hamilton in these sentences: Alexander Hamilton Quotes About Democracy | A-Z Quotes (see especially the 4th quote).

Seems a sentiment, a pessimistic attitude toward human nature, more than a political thought, shared by conservative minds (Rivarol, Carlyle, Borges, Churchill); Jefferson on the other side often advised about the dangers of a nation dominated by a ruling elite, seems he recognized more the average citizen's role (farmers, ecc...).
Hamilton here is not using sentimental, pessimistic attitudes about human nature. His ideas are pragmatic. The founders in general believed that because they were better educated, they would be the better choice to hold federal positions in Congress. Hamilton is a case in point, he wasn't born wealthy. When he was orphaned he was raised and provided an education by a wealthy family. There was nothing in his "human nature" that prevented him from becoming a political leader.

These beliefs were common in both the two ealy political parties.

Here is James Madison, not a Federalist but of the same political party as Jefferson, in The Federalist Papers (no. 10);


Quote:
" The effect of the first difference is, on the one hand, to refine and enlarge the public views, by passing them through the medium of a chosen body of citizens, whose wisdom may best discern the true interest of their country, and whose patriotism and love of justice will be least likely to sacrifice it to temporary or partial considerations. Under such a regulation, it may well happen that the public voice, pronounced by the representatives of the people, will be more consonant to the public good than if pronounced by the people themselves, convened for the purpose. On the other hand, the effect may be inverted. Men of factious tempers, of local prejudices, or of sinister designs, may, by intrigue, by corruption, or by other means, first obtain the suffrages, and then betray the interests, of the people. The question resulting is, whether small or extensive republics are more favorable to the election of proper guardians of the public weal; and it is clearly decided in favor of the latter by two obvious considerations...
Now you can post some Jefferson quotes were he said he preferred commoners to elites in the Federal government.
Jax Historian is offline  
Old July 7th, 2018, 12:21 PM   #29
Historian
 
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Monza, Italy
Posts: 1,182

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax Historian View Post
Now you can post some Jefferson quotes were he said he preferred commoners to elites in the Federal government.
I didn't say that, I wanted to say Jefferson was aware of the dangers of a ruling oligarchy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax Historian View Post
Hamilton here is not using sentimental, pessimistic attitudes about human nature. His ideas are pragmatic. The founders in general believed that because they were better educated, they would be the better choice to hold federal positions in Congress. Hamilton is a case in point, he wasn't born wealthy. When he was orphaned he was raised and provided an education by a wealthy family. There was nothing in his "human nature" that prevented him from becoming a political leader.

These beliefs were common in both the two ealy political parties.

Here is James Madison, not a Federalist but of the same political party as Jefferson, in The Federalist Papers (no. 10);
Thanks for the important info and for giving a deeper insight into the founder's views, in the end I think I made a simplification and misunderstood while you have a better picture of the founder's general beliefs.

Last edited by Lm1985; July 7th, 2018 at 12:46 PM.
Lm1985 is offline  
Old July 7th, 2018, 12:50 PM   #30
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2012
From: Here
Posts: 4,322
Blog Entries: 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lm1985 View Post
I didn't say that, I wanted to say Jefferson was aware of the dangers of a ruling oligarchy.
I know you didn't, but that was the context in which Hamilton was speaking in the quotes you posted. To compare them fairly, you need to have Jefferson speaking about the same thing.

Quote:
Thanks for the important info and for giving a deeper insight into the founder's views, I made a simplification and misunderstood while you have a better picture of founder's general beliefs.
You're welcome.

And be careful about Ravarol. He was a true aristocrat, a defender of the Bourbon absolute monarchy and he despised republican government. None of the founders thought like him (thank God!)
Jax Historian is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > American History

Tags
democratic republican, federalist, first party system, left wing, leftwing, party, right wing, rightwing



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Nazis: Left Or Right Wing? WirralBagpuss European History 88 June 14th, 2014 12:43 PM
What is Left Wing Libertarianism? Dan96 Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 10 May 15th, 2014 03:07 AM
Right wing, Moderate or Left wing? bartieboy Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 69 March 30th, 2011 01:23 PM
Fascism - Left/Right Wing dogfart European History 99 September 2nd, 2009 03:09 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.