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View Poll Results: Was America founded as a Christian nation?
Yes 43 26.88%
No 103 64.38%
other (please explain) 14 8.75%
Voters: 160. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 10th, 2017, 09:26 AM   #351

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Originally Posted by aldo12 View Post
In God they trust. ( Christian's God of course..)

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Worship of the Almighty Dollar is closer to anti-Christian than it is Christian.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 12:29 PM   #352

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A tough question to answer.

Personally, I think that "America was founded as a Christian nation," and "America was not founded as a Christian nation." are both misleading statements.
I think the founders didn't want people to be required to be Christian, as a few of them were Deists, but they didn't really want America to be quickly filled up with new ideas either. People who are hostile to Christianity resort far too much to the personal writings of Jefferson to try to lay out what our founding principles were. Jefferson was one of the few who was somewhat in the camp of not caring what people believed.

There is also the lie that most of the founders were deists. The vast majority were Christians. With any question, I think you have to work to dispel common misconceptions and misinformation campaigns.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 12:36 PM   #353

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The Constitution reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion …"

So, yes and no, but mostly no.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 02:06 PM   #354
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Yes Indeed it was.


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Old January 10th, 2017, 05:00 PM   #355
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The US was not founded as Christian nation but was created by the Christians. Naturally the Christian culture shall surface upon it.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 11:14 PM   #356

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Yes - very simply because nobody ever anticipated that there would be anything BUT Christianity here, but not because the founders were bigots who couldn't tolerate other sects. The way America was founded generated neither prohibition nor endorsement of other religions.
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Old July 18th, 2017, 07:23 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Comet View Post
Code Blue may not participate in this thread going forward unless his next post provides the evidence he needs to support his opinions. This means that if he responds with any other type of post, he will receive a consequence which likely will result in suspension. Further, his posts are NOT to be replied to. That way he has no reason to respond in kind.
I appreciate everyone's cooperation on this.
In private, Comet wrote that I should provide three Bible verses in support of the idea that the Constitution is Bible-based – primarily in response to requests from TotalAaton and Vingersorg.

The main reason I did not answer sooner, is that I think a fulsome explanation would require more like 300 verses. So, I compromised, and quoted or cited 37, and quoted four Founders Comet also allowed that I could clarify some terms of debate, before making the Bible-reference post

I need to parse the opening question, which state “Christian NATION.” I believe everyone who “secular: or “no,” elaborated, interpreted “nation” to mean “government. A nation is “a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history.” By that definition, the nation was not founded around the time of the revolution. Those who say “no” or “secular” also refer only to one created government, The Founders/Framers did not create one government, they created 14 “governments,” with 14 Constitutions, and one Articles of Confederation.

Also, words like faith, religion, and church do not mean the same thing. While each word has several definitions, in this context, faith is belief or lack of belief in deity. A religion is a prescribed method of practicing faith. Church is an institution, generally organized around and to govern a religion.

So, if one looks at the original Constriction, and its establishment clause and describes the prohibition of Congress creating a theocracy with one religion or sect of a religion – so-called separation of “church” and state or separation of “religion” and state – one is correct. However, if one reads the Constitution to mean separation of the Federal Government and State governments cannot practice Biblical government, well, that would be very different.

That said, in the two following posts, the first will address the Constitution as BIBLICAL GOVERNMENT. The post that follows will address the exact terms of the opening post CHRISTIAN NATION.
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Old July 18th, 2017, 07:24 AM   #358
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Constitution a Biblical Government.

After Martin Luther, a new culture arose in several countries. These societies were somewhat new in that they were based to one extent or another on trying to follow Biblical principles. The principles included things like sola scripture - that everything, even resisting wicked government and how government runs ought to be pursuant to scriptures. Previously, western societies were ruled by Kings and Monarchy and Theocracy. In my understanding, the thread title might be rephrased as – how did culture, probably more stocked with Bible-believers than any preceding one, somehow create new forms of government that were not Bible-based?

The foundation is laid in documents like the Virginia Declaration and Declaration of Independence. They set forth that man's rights, like the rights to pursue happiness and property come from God.
Genesis 1: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
:28...Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
And that it is the sole role of government to protect God-given rights to earned property, in large part, enforcing the commandment not to steal.
Romans 13:1-7 (not quoted to save space)

From the Scriptural Depravity of Man to the Building Government
The Bible teaches that man has a propensity to sin. The Calvinist acronym TULIUP begins with “total depravity” of man, as the Calvinists called it, runs throughout the Bible.
Genesis 6:5 - And God saw, that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that euery imagination of the thoughts of his heart was onely euill continually
Mark 7:20 - And he said, That which commeth out of the man, that defileth the man
Romans 3: 10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one:
11There is none that vnderstandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become vnprofitable, there is none that doeth good, no not one.

Restraining man’s propensity sin becomes the basis of limited government. Madison makes this connection between man’s depravity and limited government in Federalist 51: “But the great security against a gradual concentration of the several powers…If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.”

But restraints between government and church are just as necessary. Many see the risk of the government taking the spiritual authority of the church and imposing sectarian laws that seem unfair to other sects, but it was the marriage of church and state that corrupted Christianity, as noted by Luther. The government is supposed to keep its hands off the church.
KJV Ezra 7:4 - “Also we certifie you, that touching any of the priests, and Leuites, singers, porters, Nethinims, or ministers of this house of God, it shall not be lawfull to impose tolle, tribute, or custome vpon them.”

The so-called “secular” general government is not mutually exclusive with Bible-based government. The Bible does not require the faithful to enact government that punishes the infidels for what is in their “conscience.” The general government is still free to operate from the premise that God’s wisdom is superior to that of man; that the God of Abraham’s Divine Providence causes good and evil nations to rise and fall. The government may call for prayer or foster Biblical education by publishing Bibles – things early Congresses did.

In a Nutshell - The Framers of both the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution, which is sometimes described as a negative charter, defined in part by what it does not do, did not empower the government to violate the Commandments. (Exodus 20: 2 -24) or to violate any of the Natural Rights that are God’s gifts, under Divine Law (Natural Law). That is, the Framers did not empower the government to sin. That is essentially what I meant when asked what part of the Constitution is based on the Bible – and said, “the whole thing.”

Details – The connections between the US Constitution and the Bible could be splayed out, and cover hundreds of pages.
The Constitution's natural born citizen clause, and the implied idea of ethnic nations, compares to Deuteronomy 17:15 - Thou shalt in any wise set him King ouer thee, whom the Lord thy God shall choose. One from among thy brethren shalt thou set King ouer thee: thou mayest not set a stranger ouer thee, which is not thy brother.”
The Constitution’s treason clause and its idea that high or capital crimes require weighty evidence compares to Deuteronomy 17:6, - “At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death, be put to death: but at the mouth of one witnesse he shall not bee put to death.”

Framer and Founder Acknowledgement.
Consider express comments by Founders that “republican government” that is “guaranteed” by Article 4, Section 4 is Bible-based.
John Adams - “The Bible is the most Republican book in the world.”
John Dickinson - “The Bible is the most Republican book that ever was written.”
Samuel Langdon - “The Jewish government according to the original Constitution, which was divinely established, was a perfect republic. The civil polity of Israel is doubtless and excellent general model. At least some principle laws and orders of it may be copied to great advantage”
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Old July 18th, 2017, 07:29 AM   #359
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The United States may not have been founded as a Christian nation as a matter of law but come on now, the government has always supported a Christian culture.
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Old July 18th, 2017, 07:37 AM   #360
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At the time of the founding - “Christian Nation”

IMO, the weight of evidence of a Christian Nation, where nation means "a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history," is overwhelming. It was Christian, specifically Protestant, and mostly Reform Protestant and Calvinist. That is simple demographics, and they created governments that were explicit in bringing Biblical government to reality.

As the 1770's approached, that history, philosophy and law book known as the Bible was a large part of Colonial culture. There was not 3 Godfather and 7 Star Wars movies for people to quote in order to imbue their daily experience with meaning, McCullough’s biography of John Adams reveals that during his childhood, the Bible was the only book in the house.

In the 1770s, the Colonists, through their representatives, expressly declared themselves in formal documents as a Protestant Nation, as “Protestant Colonies, who by the English Bill of Rights were part of a “Protestant Kingdom,” and were expressly not Catholic, which had total “dissimilarity” in law and custom. Neither, is there a single claim of Deism in any of these documents. These declarations of being and acting in defense of Protestantism appear in five separate founding documents. FIVE

After the Quebec Act of 1774, and its establishment of Catholicism in the conquered territories of the Seven Years' War, concerns about Colonial safety led to actions and announcements. Delivered by Paul Revere:

Suffolk Resolves to the Continental Congress September 17, 1774
Suffolk Resolves
“10. That the late act of parliament for establishing the Roman Catholic religion and the French laws in that extensive country, nowcalled Canada, is dangerous in an extreme degree to the Protestant religion and to the civil rights and liberties of all America; and, therefore, as men and Protestant Christians, we are indispensubly obliged to take all proper measures for our security…”

Shortly, thereafter, the Continental Congress issues:

Declaration and Resolves of the First Continental Congress, October 14, 1774
Avalon Project - Declaration and Resolves of the First Continental Congress
“…for establishing the Roman Catholic religion, in the province of Quebec, abolishing the equitable system of English laws, and erecting a tyranny there, to the great danger (from so total a dissimilarity of religion, law and government) of the neighboring British colonies, by the assistance of whose blood and treasure the said country was conquered from France.”

In what I call the first “founding” document, establishing a formal political entity or association, one finds the same assertion of being Protestant political entities.

The Articles of Association; October 20, 1774
Avalon Project - Journals of the Coninental Congress - The Articles of Association; October 20, 1774
“And in prosecution of the same system, several late, cruel, and oppressive acts have been passed, respecting the town of Boston and the Massachusetts-Bay, and also an act for extending the province of Quebec, so as to border on the western frontiers of these colonies, establishing an arbitrary government therein, and discouraging the settlement of British subjects in that wide extended country; thus, by the influence of civil principles and ancient prejudices, to dispose the inhabitants to act with hostility against the free Protestant colonies, whenever a wicked ministry shall chuse so to direct them.”

Appeal to the People of Great Britain, October 21, 1774
Amendment I (Religion): Continental Congress to the People of Great Britain
“That we think the Legislature of Great-Britain is not authorized by the constitution to establish [Catholicism] a religion, fraught with sanguinary and impious tenets, or, to erect an arbitrary form of government, in any quarter of the globe. These rights, we, as well as you, deem sacred. And yet sacred as they are, they have, with many others been repeatedly and flagrantly violated.

And by another Act the dominion of Canada is to be so extended, modelled, and governed, as that by being disunited from us, detached from our interests, by civil as well as religious prejudices, that by their numbers daily swelling with Catholic emigrants from Europe, and by their devotion to Administration, so friendly to their religion, they might become formidable to us, and on occasion, be fit instruments in the hands of power, to reduce the ancient free Protestant Colonies to the same state of slavery with themselves.”

The appeal to the people of Great Britain as Protestants, to the last great charter of rights, by which England severed itself from nominally Catholic rule, repeatedly and emphatically.

English Bill of Rights 1689
Avalon Project - English Bill of Rights 1689
Whereas the late King James the Second, by the assistance of divers evil counsellors, judges and ministers employed by him, did endeavour to subvert and extirpate* the Protestant religion and the laws and liberties of this kingdom; …by causing several good subjects being Protestants to be disarmed at the same time when papists were both armed and employed contrary to law; “
“And whereas it hath been found by experience that it is inconsistent with the safety and welfare of this Protestant kingdom to be governed by a popish prince, or by any king or queen marrying a papist, “

The Colonials continued to press the same concerns, including the religious concerns in

“A Declaration by the Representatives of the United Colonies of North-America,” which sounds like the Declaration of Independence, but in more overtly religions terms.

Petition to the King, July 8, 1775
Avalon Project - Journals of the Continental Congress - Petition to the King; July 8, 1775
“...a fourth [act was passed] for extending the limits of Quebec, abolishing the English and restoring the French laws, whereby great numbers of British freemen are subject to the latter, and establishing an absolute government and the Roman Catholic religion throughout those vast regions that border on the westerly and northerly boundaries of the free Protestant English settlements...

Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776
“offense” that the King abolished, “...the free system of English laws in a neighboring province.”
While this might appear out of context to be some slight and vague complaint, the foregoing shows it to be an important complaint rooted in the English Bill of Rights of 1689, which included protection of Protestantism from incompatible religions.

Later, in the 1770's, when the 13 former colonies began crafting state constitutions:
-5 required that officials be Protestant (VT, NJ, GA, NC and SC),
-2 specified Christian (MA and MD), and
-Pennsylvania required this daily oath to the "God" of the...Old and New Testament."

It is noteworthy that these state legislators would be those who ratify the Constitution within 10 years. And states also had establishment laws.

Last edited by Code Blue; July 18th, 2017 at 07:43 AM.
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