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View Poll Results: Was America founded as a Christian nation?
Yes 43 27.04%
No 103 64.78%
other (please explain) 13 8.18%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 26th, 2016, 11:47 PM   #31

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Originally Posted by constantine View Post
Yes, it was founded in the context of Christian civilization and, thus, as a Christian nation. It certainly espoused certain secular ideals, but these ideals too were the product of Christian civilization. We have never formed a civilization distinct from that of the Christian world and even if we tend to use the term 'Cestern' instead of 'Christian' today, it means the exact same thing, the distinctions are merely semantic. Being a Christian nation is a matter of culture.
By this criterion, the Soviet Union was a Christian nation.
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Old April 27th, 2016, 12:14 AM   #32

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Originally Posted by Recusant View Post
By this criterion, the Soviet Union was a Christian nation.
It was a state formation centered around a secularized Eastern Orthodox country.
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Old April 27th, 2016, 12:18 AM   #33

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It was a state formation centered around a secularized Eastern Orthodox country.
And therefore a Christian nation?
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Old April 27th, 2016, 12:31 AM   #34

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And therefore a Christian nation?
It depends on the timeline.
Lenin and Kruschev openly opposed religion while Stalin reopened churces.

I've written elsewhere that Soviet Union was a combination of Jacobinism and Russian autocracy.
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Old April 27th, 2016, 12:44 AM   #35

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Originally Posted by Ayatollah View Post
It depends on the timeline.
Lenin and Kruschev openly opposed religion while Stalin reopened churces.
Yes, it seems a very careful parsing of the timeline is necessary.

Lenin died in 1924, after which Stalin consolidated his control of the Soviet Union.

Quote:
The report of the Chief Procurator of the Holy Synod for 1914 recorded that there were 54,174 churches in the Russian Empire, 38,220 of those within Russia itself. There is little material on the precise pattern of the assault on religion after 1917 and very little systematic work has been yet produced. The available information points to an initial series of church closures in 1917-18, when churches attached to schools and hospitals were closed. After the initial wave of closures a relatively slow process continued until 1928 when a concerted programme of church closures began. Vladislav Tsypin estimates that in 1928 more than two-thirds of the 1916 churches (over 30,000) remained open, but the 'Cultural Revolution' saw a massive attack on church numbers. In some areas the effect was dramatic: in Ryazan' 192 churches were closed in 1929; in Orel oblast' there were no Orthodox churches left by 1930 out of a prerevolutionary total of 1,078; in Moscow there were 500 churches in 1928, of which 224 were left by 1 January 1930, and 87 by 1932.

[source (PDF)]
Clearly, Stalin presided over the closure of a massive number of churches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayatollah View Post
I've written elsewhere that Soviet Union was a combination of Jacobinism and Russian autocracy.
So not a Christian nation, then?

Last edited by Recusant; April 27th, 2016 at 12:53 AM.
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Old April 27th, 2016, 01:03 AM   #36

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Nominally it wasn't since it adopted Jacobin politics.
Approach towards religion changes from time to time.

Stalin could not openly claim religiousness since Soviets were preaching Marxist-Leninist propaganda around the globe and they would not include populations of non-Eastern Orthodox backround.

And last but not least,Communism seemed to be fertile on countries of Catholic,Eastern Orthodox or Buddhist backround.
It was rather weak amidst Mohammedan countries for example or Calvinist ones.
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Old April 27th, 2016, 01:48 AM   #37

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Back on original topic:

The Founding fathers were Christians, as far as I know.
THe USA was not founded as a Christian nation however, but as a nation where everyone was free to follow his own beliefs.

President John Adams put it to writing in the treaty of Tripoli:
“The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
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Old April 27th, 2016, 02:08 AM   #38

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Originally Posted by Ayatollah View Post
Stalin could not openly claim religiousness since Soviets were preaching Marxist-Leninist propaganda around the globe and they would not include populations of non-Eastern Orthodox backround.
We have gone far afield from the topic of this thread, but in the interest of historical accuracy, I will comment on what you've said, and then drop this particular line of discussion. Your apparent attempt to rehabilitate Stalin as a crypto-Orthodox believer who felt he had to hide his true feelings because of "Marxist-Leninist propaganda" is ahistorical. As has been shown, he presided over a severe repression of the Orthodox church when he was the unquestioned dictator of the Soviet Union. Nobody forced him to do that, and if he had chosen to take a different course (as he did later during WWII), nobody would have been able to stop him. He knew perfectly well what he was doing. His rapprochement with the Orthodox church during WWII was a purely self-interested utilitarian move that was designed to use the church in aid of the war effort. It seems obvious that absent the motivation of the war, Stalin would not have allowed any relaxation of the Soviet repression of the church, and a narrative that claims otherwise has no basis in historical fact.

Quote:
Unlike Stalin, who suffered a mental collapse when the reality of Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union penetrated his state of denial, on the very day of the attack metropolitan Sergei sent a message to every Orthodox parish. It reminded the Russian faithful of the heroic deeds of their ancestors, and of the saints Alexander Nevsky and Dimitri Donskoi, who had rescued Holy Russia in past crises: 'Our Orthodox Church has always shared the fate of the people. It has always borne their trials and cherished their successes. It will not desert the people now ... The Church of Christ blesses all the Orthodox defending the sacred frontiers of our Motherland. The Lord will grant us victory.' . . . On 11 November [1942], Stalin harangued troops on Red Square as German troops battled their way towards suburban Moscow, invoking Nevsky, Donskoi, Suvarov and Kutusov, realising that common or garden patriotism and religion had greater mobilising potential than Marxist-Leninism. Typically, patriarch Sergei had been dragged from his sickbed a few days before and deported to Ulyanovsk.

. . .

Starting with Alexei in Leningrad, sermons became appeals to donate money to the war effort. By January 1943, over three million rubles had been raised in Leningrad alone. Another five hundred thousand rubles funded a tank column named after Dimitri Donskoi. By the end of the war, the Church had contributed 150 million rubles.

. . .

In September [1943], the exiled Sergei was surprised to find himself brought back to Moscow and installed in the former residence of the German ambassador. At 9 p.m. the following night, he and metropolitans Alexei and Nikolai, were driven to the Kremlin for a session with Molotov and Stalin. The former improbably asked what the Church might need. Recovering from the shock of this request, Sergei said the reopening of churches and seminaries, a Church council and the election of a patriarch. As if it had nothing to do with him, Stalin gently inquired: 'And why don't you have cadres? Where have they disappeared to?' Rather than pointing out that most of these 'cadres' had died in camps, Sergei quickly joked: 'One of the reasons is that we train a person for the priesthood, and he becomes the Marshal of the Soviet Union.' This set Stalin off on a monologue about his days as a seminarian which went on until 3 a.m. Stalin helped the elderly Sergei down the stairs, saying, 'Your Grace, this is all I can do for you at the present time,' although he also appointed Georgi Karpov as the regime's liaison with the Orthodox Church. Karpov was the NKVD official who had arrested and shot most of the clergy, though Stalin added, 'I know Karpov, he is an obliging subordinate.' At some point in the course of that night there was oral agreement regarding the future status of the Orthodox Church. Within four days nineteen bishops were found who elected Sergei patriarch, successor to patriarch Tikhon who had died in 1925. They issued a joint exhortation to Christians around the world to unite against Hitler.

[source]

Last edited by Recusant; April 27th, 2016 at 02:47 AM.
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Old April 27th, 2016, 02:17 AM   #39

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Originally Posted by Recusant View Post
We have gone far afield from the topic of this thread, but in the interest of historical accuracy, I will comment on what you've said, and then drop this particular line of discussion. Your apparent attempt to rehabilitate Stalin as a crypto-Orthodox believer who felt he had to hide his true feelings because of "Marxist-Leninist propaganda" is ahistorical. As has been shown, he presided over a severe repression of the Orthodox church when he was the unquestioned dictator of the Soviet Union. Nobody forced him to do that, and if he had chosen to take a different course, nobody would have been able to stop him. He knew perfectly well what he was doing. His later rapprochement with the Orthodox church during WWII was a purely self-interested utilitarian move that was designed to use the church in aid of the war effort.
Fair enough.

I'll drop one last line:
Stalin - The Enduring Legacy

It's a book written by a right wing Anglo-Saxon If I recall rightly.
There are also decent authors from Canada if you are into the mood to further explore Stalinism.
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Old April 27th, 2016, 05:41 AM   #40

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayatollah View Post
It depends on the timeline.
Lenin and Kruschev openly opposed religion while Stalin reopened churces.

I've written elsewhere that Soviet Union was a combination of Jacobinism and Russian autocracy.
That is not entirely true about Lenin and religion. On its face Lenin may have appeared to dislike religion. At the same time Lenin for example... passionately defended the rights of Jews. Lenin also(according to wiki) protected a Muslim communist who some Russians felt was talking things to far.


In some ways, Lenin was close in thought to the founding fathers of the USA.
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