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Old December 23rd, 2016, 09:58 AM   #11

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Originally Posted by betgo View Post
This has been discussed before..
betgo--I searched for Jeff Davis before posting this and found no thread on the topic.
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Old December 23rd, 2016, 10:03 AM   #12

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This has been discussed before. Partly, because of ex parte Milligan, 1866. Four Confederate sympathizers were accused of conspiring to attack POW camps, and all sort of stuff like that. They were tried by military court and sentenced to death. The US Supreme Court ruled that civilians couldn't be tried by military courts when civilian courts existed.

The Lincoln conspirators were tried by military court. Except for one, John Surrat, who fled the country and was extradited. He was tried by civilian court in Washington, DC, and there was a hung jury.

It would have been impossible to get a conviction of Davis by a jury anywhere in the south, including Washington, DC. They would have to have tried him in New England or somewhere like that or by military court, any of which would have questionable legality and constitutionality.
I'm not sure that Ex-Confederates, who had lost the right to vote, could serve on juries. Anyone know?
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Old December 23rd, 2016, 11:16 AM   #13
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Wasn't it supposed to be a Union of states, not a country? A number of states wanted to cede from that union and have their own laws. War was made to prevent them doing that.

It's quite amazing how the USA today quickly sticks up for people who want independence from a big bully state (eg Cuba/Spain), but anyone who wants to break away from the US is a dastardly traitor!?

Isn't that the way Moscow thinks too?
Secession is not in the Constitution. States cannot secede. What country worthy of the name makes a provision in its fundamental document for its dissolution?
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Old December 23rd, 2016, 11:17 AM   #14
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I'm not sure that Ex-Confederates, who had lost the right to vote, could serve on juries. Anyone know?
That's what I was getting at...
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Old December 23rd, 2016, 11:20 AM   #15
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Really what you are saying is Lincoln should have been hanged as it applies to Lincoln not Davis. Lincoln destroyed the american union of the founders. he also destroyed the american principle of self government and the consent of the governed.

“Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.”
-Abraham Lincoln 1848

“That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government”
-Declaration of Independence


it was also Lincoln, not Davis that committed treason.


Article 3 section 3 of the constitution says

"Treason against the United*States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."

This is what Abraham Lincoln did in the American civil war, he waged war against the southern states.

“To coerce the states is one of the maddest projects that was ever devised... a complying state at war with a non complying state. Congress marching the troops of one state into the bosom of another? Here is a nation at war with itself. Can any reasonable man be well disposed toward a government which makes war and carnage the only means of supporting itself- a government that can exists only by the sword”.
-Alexander Hamilton Northern federalist


Also being called a traitor is not automatically a bad thing, our nations greatest heroes IMO were traitors. The declaration of Independence was a secession document of sovereign states choosing separation from England's tyrannical government. From Great Britans point of view, they were the loyalist and Americans the traitors. The difference is the north won the war. Had America lost its war for independence, they would have taught the founders as traitors and rebels in textbooks in America. During the revolution “loyalist” like Benedict Arnold were the traitors.
Like I said, he was a traitor and Davis should probably have been hanged.
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Old December 23rd, 2016, 02:19 PM   #16

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He should probably have been hanged. I cannot find any mercy for this traitor who caused so many needless deaths. One should theoretically, at least, be magnanimous in victory, but this man willfully made war on his own country and, as the head of its government, the weight of that guilt should have descended upon him. Whether nor not he could have been tried in the South is a question can't answer but a military tribunal wouldn't have been beyond the pale. A "jury of one's peers" in the South makes me wonder about whether there would have been any peers who weren't already disenfranchised. Hm.
I believe neither he nor Lee got their citizenships back.
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Old December 23rd, 2016, 02:37 PM   #17

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Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
Really what you are saying is Lincoln should have been hanged as it applies to Lincoln not Davis. Lincoln destroyed the american union of the founders. he also destroyed the american principle of self government and the consent of the governed.

“Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.”
-Abraham Lincoln 1848

“That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government”
-Declaration of Independence


it was also Lincoln, not Davis that committed treason.


Article 3 section 3 of the constitution says

"Treason against the United*States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."

This is what Abraham Lincoln did in the American civil war, he waged war against the southern states.
Two options.

Either the South had seceded from the US and was an independent nation in which case Lincoln could declare war on them to his hearts content. Particularly since the south fired first, the Japanese got into a bit of trouble about that after Pearl Harbour!

Or you are denying the entire existence of the Southern independence cause and declaring Jefferson /Davis and all other southern supporters as traitors to their only recognized nation?

Can't be both?
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Old December 23rd, 2016, 02:38 PM   #18

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I believe neither he nor Lee got their citizenships back.
Gen. Lee died on Oct. 12, 1870, without having followed up on his clemency petition with President Grant, so his citizenship was not restored until Congress acted in July of 1975 with passage of Senate Joint Resolution 23, which stated that:

"In accordance with section 3 of Amendment 14 of the United States Constitution, the legal disabilities placed upon Gen. Lee as a result of his service as General of the Army of Northern Virginia are removed, and that Gen. Lee is posthumously restored to full rights of citizenship, effective June 13, 1865."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.70625d1fabc5
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Old December 23rd, 2016, 03:37 PM   #19
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I'm not sure that Ex-Confederates, who had lost the right to vote, could serve on juries. Anyone know?
I believe that many who had fought for the Confederacy could vote if they took a loyalty oath. Anyway, most white southerners would not vote to convict Davis of treason. In some southern states there were not blacks on juries during Reconstruction. Basically, in the south, you could only get a conviction from a mostly black jury. The US probably didn't want to do that even if it was feasable to get such a jury.

As I implied, there is no way you could get a jury in border areas like Washington DC to convict him. The only way would be to try him in New England or the upper midwest or by military tribunal. The Supreme Court would probably void a conviction by military tribunal.

Davis and any other Confederate charged with treason could also argue that the Confederacy was an independent country and that they were following their states. Even if the states did not have a right to secede, it is not necessarily treason for someone to follow his state.

In fact, no one was tried for treason. Two Confederate officers were executed, one a POW camp commander and the other a guerrilla leader. Another guerrilla leader would have been executed but was killed evading capture. The captain of a commerce raider didn't return for 10 years, fearing trial for piracy. The cabinet member responsible for the Confederate secret service fled the country and never returned. The Confederate secret service in Canada didn't return for several years. They may have been concerned about being interogated, as much as about being tried for murder or whatever.
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Old December 23rd, 2016, 04:15 PM   #20
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Secession is not in the Constitution. States cannot secede. What country worthy of the name makes a provision in its fundamental document for its dissolution?
A country founded by the american founding fathers who had radical ideas like self government and the consent of the governed. basically that government was made for man and not man for government. That man held inalienable rights from god, that governments were instituted among men, to secure, not to violate those rights. Among them self government.


That these same leaders created a Constitution to hold in check federal powers, a agreement and contract that only had authority it was delegated. So when we speak of secession, this is not a function of the federal government, but of we the people as an inalienable right.

“The South maintained with the depth of religious conviction that the Union formed under the Constitution was a Union of consent and not of force; that the original States were not the creatures but the creators of the Union; that these States had gained their independence, their freedom, and their sovereignty from the mother country, and had not surrendered these on entering the Union; that by the express terms of the Constitution all rights and powers not delegated were reserved to the States; and the South challenged the North to find one trace of authority in that Constitution for invading and coercing a sovereign State..”
-John B Gordon Confederate General Reminiscences of the Civil War



What country is worth joining when your are forced to join? when they will kill you to try and leave.

“The civil war was that the right to govern is paramount over the right to live, that man is made for government, rather than that government is made for man, and that for men to claim the right of self government is to deserve and incure the death penalty”
-Charles L.C minor The real Lincoln 1928


“opposing secession changes the nature of government “from a voluntary one, in which the people are sovereigns, to a despotism were one part of the people are slaves”
- New York Journal of commerce 1/12/61


The war “Destroyed voluntary union of the founders and made all Americans servants rather than masters of their own government”
-Thomas Dilorenzo author of The Real Lincoln and Lincoln Unmasked

Last edited by 1stvermont; December 23rd, 2016 at 04:18 PM.
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