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Old December 26th, 2017, 05:22 PM   #11

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US Constitution 14th Amendment---adopted 1868.

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Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.


Pretty clear.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 05:34 PM   #12

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The Tariff Collector for the Port of Charleston, South Carolina sent a bull for his salary to Washington, DC after the war started. They sent him back a draft drawn on the account of the Port of Charleston.

The people that collected fees and duties at Ports handled quite a bit of money back then. It was a major Patronage post. The Senior Senator of the state usually appointed them. When Louisiana seceded the Port of New Orleans had more traffic than any other port in the country. The State of Louisiana seized the funds for the Port.

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Old December 26th, 2017, 05:36 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ancientgeezer View Post
US Constitution 14th Amendment---adopted 1868.



Pretty clear.
I don't understand. What does an amendment adopted in 1868 have to do with whether or not the Confederacy was willing to pay a portion of the federal debt in 1861?
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Old December 26th, 2017, 08:59 PM   #14
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In the two months before Lincoln took office southern militias stole money from federal mint, stole a couple U.S. treasury cutters and stole federal arms and munitions from federal arsenals and forts.

But of course they were going to pay their share of the federal debt because they were very honest guys.
It was not just a matter of honesty/goodwill towards Union. Obviously the seceded States were entitled to a share of Union assets. What was Lincoln offering them? What was even Buchanan offering them?
But it was a matter of goodwill of creditors. If the Southern States borrowed money as United States and then defaulted on US federal debts and wanted to borrow more money as Confederate States, why should the creditors they just cheated throw good money after bad?

So: Lincoln never recognized legality of secession and never asked for a specific share of debt. Even Buchanan did not recognize secession. But did any of the southern States ever offer to pay a share of debt?
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Old December 27th, 2017, 01:46 AM   #15
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It was not just a matter of honesty/goodwill towards Union. Obviously the seceded States were entitled to a share of Union assets. What was Lincoln offering them? What was even Buchanan offering them?
Obviously?? the South was "entitled" to a share of Union assets??? That's far from "obvious." They were skipping out on their share of the national debt and they were stealing more federal property at gun point. And they started doing this within a couple weeks of the first state seceding. How did they become the sole arbitrators of what "share" of federal assets they were entitled to? And please provide the theory of law under which they were "entitled" to do any of this.

What I think the Confederacy was entitled to was a butt kicking back into the 15th century, which Lincoln saw to.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 05:26 AM   #16
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Obviously?? the South was "entitled" to a share of Union assets??? That's far from "obvious." They were skipping out on their share of the national debt and they were stealing more federal property at gun point. And they started doing this within a couple weeks of the first state seceding. How did they become the sole arbitrators of what "share" of federal assets they were entitled to? And please provide the theory of law under which they were "entitled" to do any of this.

What I think the Confederacy was entitled to was a butt kicking back into the 15th century, which Lincoln saw to.
Yeh, I agree on this, except for the tone. There was no discussion of assets and debts, because the US did not recognize secession as legitimate.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 08:17 AM   #17
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Gmon, this is so partisan. I am sure that a lot of things that go on in war would be considered theft, murder, vandalism, even rape in civilian life.

As I implied, the Confederacy would probably have been glad to agree to pay its share of the debt in any peace treaty.
No, that is not partisan.

In a hypothetical alternate universe where the CSA was recognized as an independent nation in 1862, for example, things that were done in the hypothetical Second Southern War of 1882-1885 and Third Southern War of 1915-1920, and Fourth Southern War of 1951-1956, and so on, things what would be considered theft, murder, vandalism, in civilian life would have been considered acts of war.

But a state of war can only exist between two independent polities. The CSA never became an independent nation. The attempt by southern states to unilaterally secede were illegal and so everything done to make that secession successful was illegal and criminal.

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. I am sure that a lot of things that go on in war would be considered ....rape in civilian life.
According to the customs, rules, and laws of war in effect during the US Civil War, that which was rape in civil life was rape in war and punishable by death. A soldier's claim that the raped woman or girl was a citizen of the other side would not save him from punishment by a court martial by his own side, let alone by the enemy side.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 12:36 PM   #18
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Yeh, I agree on this, except for the tone. There was no discussion of assets and debts, because the US did not recognize secession as legitimate.
But Confederate States did.

The precedent of 1775 was there, of course.
Great Britain owed a huge public debt in 1775. Something like 150 % of annual GDP. And quite a lot of it contracted to protect Americans from Frenchmen.

Americans did not respect King´s property in 1775...1776 - it became State public property. But although the States and eventually Federal budget assumed the US Revolutionary War debts and also promised to enforce pre-1775 debts of private persons, did United States pay any share of pre-1775 British public debt?

Now, Lincoln did not recognize secession as legitimate and did not ask for any share of debt. Even Buchanan did not recognize secession.
But did any of the Southern States officially offer to recognize any share of Union pre-Secession debts? Even as an offer to negotiate, without specifying a number? Whether aimed at North (who may not have been in the mood to agree) or aimed at the creditors (to motivate them to lend more to the newly seceded States or Confederacy - so that they would lend some and in return get back not just their additional loan and interest, but also the pre-Secession federal debt)?
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Old December 27th, 2017, 01:46 PM   #19
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But Confederate States did.

The precedent of 1775 was there, of course.
Great Britain owed a huge public debt in 1775. Something like 150 % of annual GDP. And quite a lot of it contracted to protect Americans from Frenchmen.

Americans did not respect King´s property in 1775...1776 - it became State public property. But although the States and eventually Federal budget assumed the US Revolutionary War debts and also promised to enforce pre-1775 debts of private persons, did United States pay any share of pre-1775 British public debt?

Now, Lincoln did not recognize secession as legitimate and did not ask for any share of debt. Even Buchanan did not recognize secession.
But did any of the Southern States officially offer to recognize any share of Union pre-Secession debts? Even as an offer to negotiate, without specifying a number? Whether aimed at North (who may not have been in the mood to agree) or aimed at the creditors (to motivate them to lend more to the newly seceded States or Confederacy - so that they would lend some and in return get back not just their additional loan and interest, but also the pre-Secession federal debt)?
I am confused about what you want to know. I thought it was about whether the southern states offered to pay off their portion of the federal debt during secession in 1861. But now you are talking about the U.S. after the Revolution (and no, there is nothing in the Treaty of Paris about the U.S. paying off any of the British national debt).

Do you want to know whether the Confederate states offered to pay the U.S. government from the pre-war debt before or after the war? I don't know if this helps, but after the war, the state of Virginia did attempt to pay the $24 million debt they had to pre-war bond holders, but that was pretty much a mess, including when they tried to make West Virginia pay 1/3 of it.

What period are you asking about?
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Old December 27th, 2017, 02:05 PM   #20
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Do you want to know whether the Confederate states offered to pay the U.S. government from the pre-war debt before or after the war? I don't know if this helps, but after the war, the state of Virginia did attempt to pay the $24 million debt they had to pre-war bond holders, but that was pretty much a mess, including when they tried to make West Virginia pay 1/3 of it.

What period are you asking about?
As I mentioned, Virginia's debt was 40% of the national debt. Virginia did pay it off, and West Virginia was forced to pay Virginia for its share.

There were no negotiations where the US was willing to discuss Confederate independence. That might have happened if the Confederates were winning.

In the negotiations a few months before the war ended, the US insisted on the abolition of slavery and the Confederate states rejoining the Union. The Confederacy would not agree to those points, and the negotiations did not get far.
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