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Old December 25th, 2017, 10:13 AM   #1
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Confederate States and Union debts


In 1860, Union had a Federal debt of about US$ 65 millions.

Some of the United States seceded from Union beginning from 20th of December, 1860, and formed Confederate States by ratification of Confederate Constitution by first 5 Confederate States on 26th of March, 1861.

Did any of the seceded States, or Confederate States as a federal entity, profess to owe any share of the pre-secession debt of United States?
How much?
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Old December 25th, 2017, 11:55 AM   #2
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Not sure about this. It is likely the Confederacy would have agreed to this as part of any negotiations granting it independence. Since the Confederacy was at war with the US, and the US did not recognize it, this was likely not an issue.

However, the Confederacy had its own debt, which was never paid off. Some of it was sold in bonds in the Confederacy. Also, the Confederacy purchased goods in the Bahamas and elsewhere for so many bales of cotton deliverable in 1868. Late in the war, that was all the Confederacy had to sell.

Virginia had a large debt for building railroads, bridges and canals that were mostly destroyed by the Union Army. West Virginia lost a Supreme Court decision over that, and made its last payment to Virginia for its share of the state debt in the 1930s.

Last edited by betgo; December 25th, 2017 at 01:26 PM.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 12:28 PM   #3
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Another issue that does not answer your question is that the 14th Amendment prohibited southern states from paying back any of the Confederate debt or to pay compensation for freed slaves.

There was a significant debt held in the south and in Europe. Bonds were sold either in British pounds or bales of cotton. I have seen Confederate bonds owned by ancestors who were flat broke after the war. I also saw certificates for bales of cotton in 1868 in a Confederate museum in Bermuda.

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But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Last edited by betgo; December 26th, 2017 at 12:36 PM.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 01:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
In 1860, Union had a Federal debt of about US$ 65 millions.

Some of the United States seceded from Union beginning from 20th of December, 1860, and formed Confederate States by ratification of Confederate Constitution by first 5 Confederate States on 26th of March, 1861.

Did any of the seceded States, or Confederate States as a federal entity, profess to owe any share of the pre-secession debt of United States?
How much?
In the two months before Lincoln took office southern militias stole money from federal mint, stole a couple U.S. treasury cutters and stole federal arms and munitions from federal arsenals and forts.

But of course they were going to pay their share of the federal debt because they were very honest guys.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 02:47 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax Historian View Post
In the two months before Lincoln took office southern militias stole money from federal mint, stole a couple U.S. treasury cutters and stole federal arms and munitions from federal arsenals and forts.

But of course they were going to pay their share of the federal debt because they were very honest guys.
Gmon, this is so partisan. I am sure that a lot of things that go on in war would be considered theft, murder, vandalism, even rape in civilian life.

As I implied, the Confederacy would probably have been glad to agree to pay its share of the debt in any peace treaty.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 03:44 PM   #6
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Gmon, this is so partisan. I am sure that a lot of things that go on in war would be considered theft, murder, vandalism, even rape in civilian life.
All of these things happened before the war began. You'll notice I said "In the two months before Lincoln took office..." If you don't know about it, the war didn't begin until 5 weeks after Lincoln took office. So your claims that I'm somehow being partisan seems to be a result of your ignorance about when the war started.

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As I implied, the Confederacy would probably have been glad to agree to pay its share of the debt in any peace treaty.
"probably???" and what do you base that on besides wishful thinking? Any quotes from Confederates about paying their share of the debt you would like to share?
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Old December 26th, 2017, 03:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax Historian View Post
"probably???" and what do you base that on besides wishful thinking? Any quotes from Confederates about paying their share of the debt you would like to share?
Any quotes from anyone in the US Government asking the Confederates to pay their share of the US debt?
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Old December 26th, 2017, 04:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by betgo View Post
Any quotes from anyone in the US Government asking the Confederates to pay their share of the US debt?
Since Lincoln maintained that the Confederacy could not secede, it would be ludicrous to think anyone asked them for money to let them secede. Are you also unaware that Lincoln thought secession to be illegal?
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Old December 26th, 2017, 04:39 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Jax Historian View Post
Since Lincoln maintained that the Confederacy could not secede, it would be ludicrous to think anyone asked them for money to let them secede. Are you also unaware that Lincoln thought secession to be illegal?
That was my point. If Lincoln was willing to negotiate Confederate independence, the Confederacy would likely have agreed to pay the whole US debt. The topic wasn't discussed, because Confederate independence was not discussed. I am sure it would have been a topic for discussion if the war had gone better for the Confederacy and there were peace talks.

There were big issues over the repayment of the debt from the Revolutionary War. Hamilton got the federal government to pay it, mostly to speculators. There was some issue over whether any of the Confederate debt would be paid. As I mentioned, there was a big issue of whether West Virginia would pay its share of the pre-war Virgainia debt.

There was no issue of the Confederacy paying its share of the US debt, because the US did not recognize the Confederacy.

I don't see why you are using this thread to takes shots at the Confederacy.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 05:08 PM   #10
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That was my point. If Lincoln was willing to negotiate Confederate independence, the Confederacy would likely have agreed to pay the whole US debt.
That is ridiculous. Its already been stated that the Confederates were stealing federal money and property before Lincoln came to office. Why do you not address their stealing this stuff? How does that fit in with claims that the southern states wanted to "go peacefully?" Maybe they would have paid on the federal debt with the federal money they stole.

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I don't see why you are using this thread to takes shots at the Confederacy.
There is a lot you don't see. And I think its because you don't want to see it.
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