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Old July 4th, 2018, 03:20 PM   #21
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You could argue that political parties themselves are the negative outgrowths of the US and other political systems. The Constitution makes no mention of them and the founders opposed them....
The founders opposed them, and then they founded the first two.
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Old July 4th, 2018, 04:38 PM   #22
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The founders opposed them, and then they founded the first two.
Well, sort of. They really didn't get well organized until Jackson's Democrats. But it's true, partisan groupings began in Washington's second term around Jefferson and Adams/Hamilton. If everyone agreed on everything we might not even need a government, let alone political parties. Of course we could also have a government where everyone agrees on everything (or else).

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Old July 4th, 2018, 05:05 PM   #23
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Well, sort of. They really didn't get well organized until Jackson's Democrats. But it's true, partisan groupings began in Washington's second term around Jefferson and Adams/Hamilton. If everyone agreed on everything we might not even need a government, let alone political parties. Of course we could we also have a government where everyone agrees on everything (or else).
Well, whatever the vague phrase "well organized" means, my point is that the founders claimed to be anti-factious, when in fact many of them were highly factious. I don't see them as being disingenuous, but rather seeing them as naive about the possibility of there not being factions when founding the first republican government. The problem exploded in their faces right from the beginning.

I'm always amused by "the founders thought..." stuff as if what they thought came down from a mountain top carved on stone tablets.
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Old July 4th, 2018, 05:28 PM   #24
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I'm always amused by "the founders thought..." stuff as if what they thought came down from a mountain top carved on stone tablets.

Click the image to open in full size.

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Old July 5th, 2018, 05:40 AM   #25

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You're not wrong, however from what I have been observing the people are taking it back as much as that counts for. The US is is also not a democracy as what most people say. It is actually a Constitutional Republic. In recent years it is big companies and rich people who have been abusing the system and turning it into something else and that is a problem that needs to be dealt with, how I am not sure. You can be assured however that the people are fighting against those groups. One could argue that the result of the 2016 election was just that. That depends on one's point of view however.
Agree. The 2008 and 2012 elections also. Hard to see how, if some oligarchy is in control, Obama could have won two elections and Donald Trump gotten the GOP nomination. We would have had Hillary Clinton for two terms, and then Bush III.

PS--sorry for talking about current events.
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Old July 6th, 2018, 07:51 AM   #26

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The Electoral College made sense in 1789.

Now, not so much.
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Old July 6th, 2018, 09:40 AM   #27

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In recent years it is big companies and rich people who have been abusing the system and turning it into something else and that is a problem that needs to be dealt with, how I am not sure. You can be assured however that the people are fighting against those groups. One could argue that the result of the 2016 election was just that. That depends on one's point of view however.
That is one point of view.
Another view is that Big Unions are also part of the problem, they claw money from their members and pour it into influencing campaigns and politicians, even if the individual member disagrees.
Also the fact that the Big Media is spewing misinformation to get candidates elected is also very troubling.

HOWEVER, at the end of the day, it's still up to each individual voter to pull the lever (push the button, whatever) for their candidate, and if they are deluged by the fake news on facebook and other media, well then its still up to the voter to separate the legitimate issues from the snake oil salesmen.
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Old July 6th, 2018, 09:57 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by MamlukWarrior View Post
Ever wonder why no matter how we vote nothing changes?
Wrong. We are experiencing a very bad time in America at the moment when literally everything is changing, so what are you talking about?[/QUOTE]

This a fine, cynical rant, but “one man, one vote” will do the current occupant in.

Last edited by royal744; July 6th, 2018 at 11:25 AM.
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Old July 6th, 2018, 11:01 AM   #29

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Originally Posted by Lord Fairfax View Post
That is one point of view.
Another view is that Big Unions are also part of the problem, they claw money from their members and pour it into influencing campaigns and politicians, even if the individual member disagrees.
Also the fact that the Big Media is spewing misinformation to get candidates elected is also very troubling.

HOWEVER, at the end of the day, it's still up to each individual voter to pull the lever (push the button, whatever) for their candidate, and if they are deluged by the fake news on facebook and other media, well then its still up to the voter to separate the legitimate issues from the snake oil salesmen.
For sure, Big Unions could, depending on how one looks at it, be even worse than the rich (this is not even going into individuals who have their hands in seemingly everything). Big Unions, or rather unions may just have the advantage of 'being for the little guy' that they can pull this off. I could be wrong though, who knows.

There are tons of individuals however that for sure have their hands in politics and have the pull to influence things to an unprecedented degree.
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Old July 6th, 2018, 11:21 AM   #30
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The Electoral College made sense in 1789.

Now, not so much.
Please explain how it ever made any sense at all. It’s just total BS. The best evidence of that is that Gore won against Bush, yet Gore “lost”; and that Trump was crushed by 3,000,000votes by Hilary. How does any of that make sense if you believe in “one man, one vote”.
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