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Old July 6th, 2018, 11:25 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Lord Fairfax View Post
That is one point of view.
Another view is that Big Unions are also part of the problem, they claw money from their members and pour it into influencing campaigns and politicians, even if the individual member disagrees.
Also the fact that the Big Media is spewing misinformation to get candidates elected is also very troubling.

HOWEVER, at the end of the day, it's still up to each individual voter to pull the lever (push the button, whatever) for their candidate, and if they are deluged by the fake news on facebook and other media, well then its still up to the voter to separate the legitimate issues from the snake oil salesmen.
Unions are not a part of the problem because what they have in their coffers is minuscule in comparison to what big business gives to politicians. People talk about unions like they are the enemy when in fact we know who the real enemy is.

Smart voters see through the ridiculous crap some folks sprout; others do not and for the “know-nothing” base for some of our more unscrupulous leaders.
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Old July 6th, 2018, 12:12 PM   #32

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Unions are not a part of the problem because what they have in their coffers is minuscule in comparison to what big business gives to politicians. People talk about unions like they are the enemy when in fact we know who the real enemy is.
Miniscule? Perhaps not.
According to the NY Times article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/10/b...-spending.html
referencing this report: https://www.opensecrets.org/news/201...-fewer-donors/

Of 3.488 billion spent, one side spent 49%, (1.722 billion) and the other side spent 51% (1.776 billion), so it seems like neither side is getting drowned out.

And this report says that Unions spent some 1.7 billion in 2015-2016, so not exactly miniscule: 2016 Election Cycle Study: Big Labor Exceeds $1.7 Billion Political Spending

I don't know how accurate the claim is, but I'd definitely like to know what the actual number is.

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As projected in November, Team Red outspent Team Blue $1.766 billion to $1.722 billion,
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Smart voters see through the ridiculous crap some folks sprout; others do not and for the “know-nothing” base for some of our more unscrupulous leaders.
I hope you're not including me in the "some folks"...
You and I may have different views on politics, but I hope we'd agree that both sides should be able to get their message out fairly and without distortion, and then let the voters decide.
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Old July 6th, 2018, 01:43 PM   #33

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Please explain how it ever made any sense at all. It’s just total BS. The best evidence of that is that Gore won against Bush, yet Gore “lost”; and that Trump was crushed by 3,000,000votes by Hilary. How does any of that make sense if you believe in “one man, one vote”.


Alexander Hamilton wrote in “The Federalist Papers,” the Constitution is designed to ensure “that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications.” The point of the Electoral College is to preserve “the sense of the people,” while at the same time ensuring that a president is chosen “by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice.”

So, it's the law, and as Mr. Bumble once observed, "The law is a ass, a idiot".

I agree with Mr.B
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Old July 6th, 2018, 01:56 PM   #34

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Please explain how it ever made any sense at all. How does any of that make sense if you believe in “one man, one vote”.
It was never intended to be one man-one vote.
The original founders negotiated a system that prevents big states from dominating the system, and the Electoral college was part of that, in addition to each state (big or small) having two senators.

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Please explain how it ever made any sense at all. It’s just total BS. The best evidence of that is that Gore won against Bush, yet Gore “lost”
Gore likely lost due to balloting irregularities in Florida, not because of the system
It made sense to the delegates at the Continental Congress, who didn't want the country to be dominated by the populous states.

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and that Trump was crushed by 3,000,000votes by Hilary.
Only because of California....
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Old July 6th, 2018, 01:58 PM   #35

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The point of the Electoral College is to preserve “the sense of the people,” while at the same time ensuring that a president is chosen “by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice.”
Not the system that you have today, as popular vote has replaced what was essentially an oligarchical system
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Old July 6th, 2018, 03:43 PM   #36

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Not the system that you have today, as popular vote has replaced what was essentially an oligarchical system
But the popular vote got reversed by the Electoral College.

Oh well.
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Old July 7th, 2018, 09:50 AM   #37
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It was never intended to be one man-one vote.
The original founders negotiated a system that prevents big states from dominating the system, and the Electoral college was part of that, in addition to each state (big or small) having two senators.

Gore likely lost due to balloting irregularities in Florida, not because of the system
It made sense to the delegates at the Continental Congress, who didn't want the country to be dominated by the populous states.

Only because of California....
In the last election, California’s Electoral College “vote” was worth much less than Wyoming’s EC vote. Tell me how that makes any sense at all, and yes, I believe fervently that my vote should be the equal of any other voter’s in any state. It’s just ridiculous nonsense that we need to stop now.

(And No, Lord Fairfax, I was not singling you out...)
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Old July 7th, 2018, 01:17 PM   #38

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Interestingly enough perhaps, the whole idea was to weed out "unlikely" candidates.
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Old July 7th, 2018, 02:26 PM   #39
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Miniscule? Perhaps not.
According to the NY Times article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/10/b...-spending.html
referencing this report: https://www.opensecrets.org/news/201...-fewer-donors/

Of 3.488 billion spent, one side spent 49%, (1.722 billion) and the other side spent 51% (1.776 billion), so it seems like neither side is getting drowned out.

And this report says that Unions spent some 1.7 billion in 2015-2016, so not exactly miniscule: 2016 Election Cycle Study: Big Labor Exceeds $1.7 Billion Political Spending

I don't know how accurate the claim is, but I'd definitely like to know what the actual number is.





I hope you're not including me in the "some folks"...
You and I may have different views on politics, but I hope we'd agree that both sides should be able to get their message out fairly and without distortion, and then let the voters decide.
This was also an election where team Blue outspending team Red could have happened(debatable who the wealthy and powerful favored here) and was expected to happen by some, curve generally will be larger in team Red's favor. A lot of team Red's biggest donors didn't spend the money they normally spend maybe none at all. 2016 was a weird year and should not be used to draw any fundraising spread.
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Old July 8th, 2018, 10:09 AM   #40

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This was also an election where team Blue outspending team Red could have happened(debatable who the wealthy and powerful favored here) and was expected to happen by some, curve generally will be larger in team Red's favor. A lot of team Red's biggest donors didn't spend the money they normally spend maybe none at all. 2016 was a weird year and should not be used to draw any fundraising spread.
Both sides are pretty well funded.
Additionally, each side benefits from somewhat to heavily slanted news coverage, so how would you factor that in?
The constant negative (or supportive) coverage on MSNBC, CNN, Fox etc could easily be worth billions of "free" advertising

Last edited by Lord Fairfax; July 8th, 2018 at 10:14 AM.
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