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Old May 18th, 2010, 06:22 PM   #1

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Canada


hey. quick question. im making an alternate history map in which the US comes to control all of canada west of ontario and britain remains in control of the rest of canada. should the provincial lines remain, or should i just merge it all into a singular Dominion of Canada?
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Old May 18th, 2010, 09:37 PM   #2

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Re: Canada


I am sure that if that would have taken place, new and different States and Statelines would have emerged. Maybe take a look at the natural boundaries and use your imagination to make something completely new. The new States could be named after differing Indian tribes and heroes from within Canada, maybe after a General who helped defeat the British to capture the territory.
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Old May 18th, 2010, 09:52 PM   #3

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Re: Canada


i hadnt considered that, and thankyouverymuch for that idea, but what i was asking was for the still-british part of canada that isnt a part of the US. its basically the french-speaking parts of canada in real-life. should they remain smaller seperate territories or be just one big one?
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Old May 18th, 2010, 10:08 PM   #4

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Re: Canada


I think the same thing would apply, due to military and economic factors, the Provinces would have evolved differently. I don't know how much sense it would make to have it as one large Province; some smaller ones seems best, at least to me.
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Old May 18th, 2010, 10:57 PM   #5

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Re: Canada


well heres a map of the newly set up canadian states. i based as much of it on former canadian provincial/territorial lines as i could. the green area is "american" canada while the red part is "british" canada. the yellow area is the real-life US.

Click the image to open in full size.

the provincial lines in teh red area are accurate to the provincial lines of modern real-world canada. all i want are opinions on whether they should remain as they are, or be merged. if anything, maybe the ontario and quebec areas should be merged?
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Old May 18th, 2010, 11:07 PM   #6

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Re: Canada


I think it looks good the way you have it here, seems realistic somehow.
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Old May 18th, 2010, 11:11 PM   #7
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Re: Canada


Quote:
Originally Posted by oshron View Post
hey. quick question. im making an alternate history map in which the US comes to control all of canada west of ontario and britain remains in control of the rest of canada. should the provincial lines remain, or should i just merge it all into a singular Dominion of Canada?
IMHO the most relevant point for the design of your alternative scenario is determining when & how would the "divergence" have occurred.
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Old May 18th, 2010, 11:54 PM   #8

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Re: Canada


Quote:
Originally Posted by oshron View Post
hey. quick question. im making an alternate history map in which the US comes to control all of canada west of ontario and britain remains in control of the rest of canada. should the provincial lines remain, or should i just merge it all into a singular Dominion of Canada?
Yes, there will have to be separate provinces. But without knowing what year we are talking about, their exact shape and nature is a terribly complicated topic!

The Dominion didn't exist until 1867; before then, the present provinces were all separate colonies. None of them were forced to join Confederation; if they didn't like the terms they didn't have to join (and some didn't, at first). It's unlikely that any would join if they were forced to give up their status as separate entities. Even today, provincial regionalism is very, very strong in Canada - our federalism is much more mild than American federalism.

I don't know what year things start getting "alternate" but your best bet, really, is to get into the individual histories of the separate provinces - which, before Confederation, were either separate colonies or just didn't exist.

Prior to 1867, there was no Dominion of Canada. There was Upper Canada (southern Ontario) and Lower Canada (southern Quebec), which united into a single colony called the Province of Canada in 1840. There were also a slew of other separate British colonies, which are now provinces of Canada. In 1867 there is Confederation, which creates the Dominion of Canada and unites some of these colonies (others joined, or were created, later on).

New Brunswick, Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, and Nova Scotia all existed, but they were separate colonies, not part of Canada. The northern parts of Ontario and Quebec were part of Rupert's Land, as were most of what later became the Prairie provinces of the West (Alberta, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan - none of which existed until later on; Alberta, for instance, did not exist even as a district until sometime in the 1880s, I think, and didn't become a full province until 1905).

With Confedation, the former Province of Canada (which became Ontario and Quebec, along the lines of the old Upper and Lower Canada), New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia unite to form the Dominion.

Despite the fact that the Confederation conferences had been hosted by Prince Edward Island and the fact that PEI is known as the Birthplace of Confederation, that colony did not like the terms of Confederation and chose to remain a colony rather than join the Dominion, until 1873.

Newfoundland remained a separate colony until after World War Two.

Rupert's Land was sold to the Dominion in 1870, and became the North-West Territories (a territory rather than a province). That was later split up to create some of the Western Provinces and expand Ontario and Quebec.

Here's what things look like in 1849, before Confederation. Canada, in this map, is not all of the red stuff in the east; New Brunswick and the rest are separate colonies (they're a bit hard to see). The red just shows what is British colonies, and the pink shows what is British territories (Rupert's Land, for instance, is British but run by the Hudson's Bay Company). Canada is just the red parts that would today be in Ontario or Quebec, and it is not yet a dominion, but just a colony.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's what things look like in 1867, after Confederation:

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's what things look like in 1870:

Click the image to open in full size.

Long story short: the answer to your question is very complicated! It would be important to know the year history has gone alternate, and when the story is taking place, to really give a good answer. But I hope this crash-course helps.
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Old May 19th, 2010, 12:10 AM   #9

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Re: Canada


lol, didnt know my question was that complicated

the relevent point of divergence is actually the war of 1812; infantry fighting breaks out in north america that forces troops away from napoleon in europe, so britain loses both of those wars(but isnt invaded) so much of canada is annexed into america. i saw in my own research that the earliest divisions were in teh 1860s, so what ive done here is really quite a stretch. in this alternate timeline, britain remains totally in control of the remaining canadian territories(the ones that dont become american) so its not like theyre really an independent entity. thats really why i was asking if they should be several provinces/colonies or a singular one with one governor
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Old May 19th, 2010, 01:18 AM   #10

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Re: Canada


Quote:
in this alternate timeline, britain remains totally in control of the remaining canadian territories(the ones that dont become american) so its not like theyre really an independent entity.
Well, Britain was in control of all their colonies (and, later, the Dominion). But never total control. Each colony had an elected government and so forth.

Because of rebellions in the 1830s Britain introduced reforms in 1848 (keywords: Lord Durham and responsible government, if you want to investigate). Things were more hands-off after that, even before Confederation. They had to be, or Britain risked violent discontent. And then even more hands-off after Confederation, and then more or less completely hands-off after WW1 and the Statute of Westminster (except for constitutional reform, til 1982). Good ol' Anglo-Saxon evolution over revolution, I guess.

One governor would be impossible; besides the fact that even the English-speaking colonies would not appreciate being summarily lumped together like that and a new round of Patriot revolts would probably break out, French Canada would go right off the deep end and definately into mass revolt. To get rid of Lower Canada/Quebec means getting rid of the Civil Code of Quebec, along with the traditional privileges of the Catholic church and all that sort of stuff. Torches and pitchforks for sure.

Also it's just a bloody big area for a single administration, without any more local divisions of government. That area you've got in your map as still belonging to Britain is larger than Western Europe.

So, you can do it in an alternate history I suppose, but the probable outcome of erasing colonial boundaries would be that Britain loses the rest of its colonies. Especially if they try to impose something like that after losing the war of 1812. Even with the succesful defence of Canada and a sort-of sense of national identity after the war, there were still pro-American rebellions in 1837-8. There was no real sense of being a "Canadian" until much later. A "Canadien" only referred to a French person. Anglophones considered themselves British (or sometimes Scots, Irish, or Englishmen), until some point after the American Civil War (I don't know exactly when, I just know that terminology was still current at the time of the ACW).
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