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Old May 26th, 2010, 06:50 AM   #111

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Re: Was the American Revolution Justified?


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Originally Posted by JimR-OCDS View Post
Then was the Shays Rebellion justified as well?


Jim

Whiskey rebelliion? Civiil War? etc. etc. etc.

What about 9/11? Was that justified on the same kind of grounds?

While you're at it Jim, what about your previous post? Are you thinking of justification in terms of classical just war theory?
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Old May 26th, 2010, 08:50 AM   #112
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Re: Was the American Revolution Justified?


do you think that it was a little ungrateful of the British colonists, that just after they had been defended from conquest by france, at great expense to Britain, that they then just showed their gratitude by rebelling?

Am i right when i say that the Average colonist was in fact taxed less than the average Britain?
And that Britain just expected the colonials to pay fro their defence?

George Washington was a traitor and Mutineer wasn't he? (i am being a little naughty, please don't bite too hard)

If france had won the war of succession ( Indian war) do you think they would have VERY brutally suppression the colonial rebellion?

WOW wouldnt the world be a different place then, Napoleon would have ruled it during the 1800th

Azita
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Old May 26th, 2010, 09:59 AM   #113

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Re: Was the American Revolution Justified?


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Originally Posted by Azita View Post
do you think that it was a little ungrateful of the British colonists, that just after they had been defended from conquest by france, at great expense to Britain, that they then just showed their gratitude by rebelling?

Am i right when i say that the Average colonist was in fact taxed less than the average Britain?
And that Britain just expected the colonials to pay fro their defence?

George Washington was a traitor and Mutineer wasn't he? (i am being a little naughty, please don't bite too hard)

If france had won the war of succession ( Indian war) do you think they would have VERY brutally suppression the colonial rebellion?

WOW wouldnt the world be a different place then, Napoleon would have ruled it during the 1800th

Azita
IMO, you're reading too much into the French and Indian wars. What began with the skirmish at Jumonville Glen (1754) was a botched attempt by both the Americans and French to control the confluence of the Monongahela and Allegheny. It was fought with battles and skirmishes over extent of territory along the northwestern frontier of the colonies.

It did escalate into the Seven Years War between French and English from 1757 to 1763. That began with several failures of the British in North America and the fall of the British government. William Penn succeeded to the ministry with a whole new strategy of throwing money at a worldwide war for empire. Huge sums of money. Thus was born the British Empire.

Along comes George III (1760). Lord Bute was extremely unpopular. It became customary in America (if not England) to hang or burn boots in effigy (playing on the name). Bute decided to station a standing British army in America--something which the Americans had no truck for. It was Grenville who decided to impose direct taxes on the Americans to pay off the huge British debt. The taxes his ministry imposed were not just unpopular--they were economically unsound and had they been fully implemented would have resulted in very llittle revenue for Britain--perhaps negative revenue. To say that the taxes were imposed to pay for America's defense was hogwash. They were imposed by those Parliamentarians who were anxious to assert Parliamentary supremacy. So, to answer your first question "do you think that it was a little ungrateful of the British colonists, that just after they had been defended from conquest by france, at great expense to Britain, that they then just showed their gratitude by rebelling?" the answer is pretty simple. No.

Whether the Americans were taxed less than the British is pretty irrelevant. To the Americans, the principle involved here was whether Pariliament had a right to tax them at all, other than duties on exports/imports ("external" versus "internal" taxes). In their charters, the colonies had been given the right to self government. Parliament, in declaring its supremacy in this way was terminating an arrangement. In repealing the stamp act tax, Parliament began with the Declaratory Act stating that Parliament was supreme in "every matter whatsoever." That was a far greater challenge to the American colonists than the tax. The literature and political tracts of that era make that abundantly clear. You then ask "And that Britain just expected the colonials to pay fro their defence?" Well to the less sophicated Brits that's true. But as I said, the real intent was to declare the supremacy of Parliament. Grenville was pretty unskilled in economics and finance.

Your question about George Washington is a red herring. To the loyalists, of course he was a traitor. To the patriots, of course he was a great hero. As a Col. in Virginia, he was inadept.

If France had won the war of succession? Do you mean the French/Indian war or the Seven Years War? Those are relevant to the rest of the question. Had they won the French/Indian war, which they almost did, they would have controlled territory around Pittsburgh claimed by Virginia and Pennsylvania. By losing the Seven Years War, they lost all of Canada.

Now there's lots of material in here that we may disagree about and discuss. But the OP was "was the American Revolution justified?" If by that we mean the war of independence, then this has little to do with it except it is important background material leading up to the dissatisfaction after 1770.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 10:33 AM   #114

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Re: Was the American Revolution Justified?


I think a general observation is warranted here.

As citizens of Europe and America today we are inclined to say "So what?" regarding the taxes imposed by Parliament. We all pay taxes more than the American colonists did.

New England in particular (and that's where the protests began) was originally populated with dissenters. These are the kind of people who became republicans in the time after the restoration.

For these people, arbitrary government = tyranny. Was this arbitrary government. Read the Declaratory act that went with the repeal of the Stamp Act

Quote:
Whereas several of the houses of representatives in His Majesty's colonies and plantations in America have of late, against law, claimed to themselves, or to the general assemblies of the same, the sole and exclusive right of imposing duties and taxes upon His Majesty's subjects in the said colonies and plantations; and have, in pursuance of such claim, passed certain votes, resolutions, and orders derogatory to the legislative authority of Parliament, and inconsistent with the dependency of the said colonies and plantations upon the crown of Great Britain: may it therefore please Your Most Excellent Majesty that it may be declared, and be it declared by the king's Most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, That the said colonies and plantations in America have been, are, and of right ought to be, subordinate unto, and dependent upon the imperial crown and Parliament of Great Britain; and that the king's Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, of Great Britain, in Parliament assembled, had, hath, and of right ought to have, full power and authority to make laws and statutes of sufficient force and validity to bind the colonies and people of America, subjects of the crown of Great Britain, in all cases whatsoever.
II. And be it further declared and enacted by the authority aforesaid, That all resolutions, votes, orders, and proceedings, in any of the said colonies or plantations, whereby the power and authority of the Parliament of Great Britain to make laws and statutes as aforesaid is denied, or drawn into question, are, and are hereby declared to be, utterly null and void to all intents and purposes whatsoever.
For these people a standing army = tyranny.

Lord Bute and succeeding ministers, rather than try to pay off the debt of England "incurred in the defense of America" attempted and succeeded at establishing a standing Army in America. This was not to defend Americans so much as to control them. The colonists saw that pretty clearly. The "Boston Massacre" and the Battle of Lexington and Concord were the result of the British Army's attempts to disarm the colonists. That army was here to enforce order and even to collect taxes if that's what was decided. It was unbridled tyranny.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 10:41 AM   #115

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Re: Was the American Revolution Justified?


I'm more curious as to whether people think it would have succeeded if France hadn't stuck her garlicky nose in!
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Old May 26th, 2010, 11:37 AM   #116

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Re: Was the American Revolution Justified?


I think the revolution was justified. The people wanted self determination. Can't blame them really.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 01:16 PM   #117
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Re: Was the American Revolution Justified?


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. The people wanted self determination. Can't blame them really.
Rasta, did they REALLY get that? does anyone have self determination?

Please don't bite, but, i really do think "we" just fool ourselves.

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Old May 26th, 2010, 01:18 PM   #118

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Re: Was the American Revolution Justified?


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Rasta, did they REALLY get that? does anyone have self determination?

Please don't bite, but, i really do think "we" just fool ourselves.

Azita
I'm just talking about from their perspective. That was the goal, and justification.

I understand your point though.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 02:06 PM   #119

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Re: Was the American Revolution Justified?


To the OP question, was the American revolution justified?

IMHO, yes, it was justified. It wasn't inevitable that it happen or that it happen when and where it did, that part was chance somewhat.

The English colonies were established in a haphazard fashion with out a preconceived plan as to integrating them into the English system. Their establishment goals were varied, from escape from religious persecution ( Puritans and Pilgrims in Mass.) to hope for financial gain ( Virginia) to philanthropic utopia ( Georgia). Their initial governing structures were also diverse from Royal Charters to Stock Companies. As the colonies grew and prospered their populations increased. Ben Franklin wrote an article saying that the population of the colonies in the doubled every 20 years in the18th century while that of England stagnated. He predicted that the population of the American Colonies would out strip that of England in the 19th century ( which was correct the populations were equal in 1850 at about 17 million).


The English System of representation in Parliament evolved from the Magna Carta secured from King John in 1215, so that taxes were levied with consent of the governed. With respect to the American Colonies, the 18th Century Parliament and King deemed that they had the right to tax their American Territories and that the Colonialist's representation in Parliament was indirect and that the various Colonial Legislatures didn't have the right to levy their own taxes. This rankled the American Colonists as unjust, against the spirit of the English Constitution. The Mercantilism theory of economics was in full sway with all advantages to the parent country, a bolster to the policy of exploiting colonial peoples. The expanding British Empire hadn't thought out a logical system of representation in the parent Parliament or any alternative home rule system for the various colonies. The American Revolution was justified in correcting this imbalance.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 03:46 PM   #120

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Re: Was the American Revolution Justified?


We've already had some very convincing arguments against the whole "no taxation without representation" slur though...
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