Nemowork

Try the child ballads, various border songs in their English, Scottish and american variations recorded by Richard Child.

Here's one done by June Tabor

The cruel mother, a cheerful little tale of a mother who disposes of her illegitimate children, buries them in the wood and later runs into a couple of playing children, feeling guilty she talks about how she could give them a good life and finery, whereupon the children say 'but you never treated us so well before you killed us'


traditional music hasn't survived too well, the folk revival of the 60's tends to stick violins and comedy 'rustic' accents attempted by too posh people on them.

The borders are rough, bleak places, the songs ought to represent that, the modern recorded versions just sound too antiseptic and like people are feeling smug for getting the technical details right.

Richard Stanbery

Dang, that's a chiller, Nemo! Plumb repulsive, now that I listened to it twiced.
And its perfect Appalachian in thought. Its just like our music. How strange!

Hey, here is another little ditty called "Knoxville Girl". Its a song about a man out on a walk with his woman. He loves her so much that he beats her to death and throws her dead bydy into the river. Its very much the kind of song like the one you posted. Its a remarkable similarity of melancholy, isnt it? They say it came over with us from England. Ever heard it?


How wierd is that?

Thessalonian

Pretty weird, if you ask me!

Richard Stanbery

Yes it is wierd. Indeed so.

And so it is, that I present the same question (as a daliance in the off topic for a brief moment) to one and all that I have presented to Chookie. And that is,..."Who were the Scots Irish?" It is baffling, isnt it?

The history books tell us one thing about them, but the census records and muster rolls of the local militias tell us another. There were so many English in the Scots-Irish movement that the majority of the Scots-Irish people seem to have been English. So wierd...

But like I say, Im not saying that Chookie is wrong. But neither can I fully say that he is right. I will have to stand a little uncertain on it.

I do remember asking my grandfather (mothers side) who his ancestors were. He replied with a nod and a pround inflection..."Scotch-Irish".

Where did they come from? I asked him.

"England" was the reply. His family surname is Bradley.

And so, the whole thing is so confusing that it makes my head spin like reel dancers at a barn dance.

To get back to the OP...what of Ireland and Scotland today? Are there languages besides English that are spoken, but banned by the government? The American government has tried to educate away Appalachian for more than 100 years, with little avail. (And that is because Appalachian is a better language than modern English for conveying meanings and emotions in a very deep and personal way).

Are the Irish and Scots forbidden from speaking Irish or Gaelic today? Are any of the dialects of Irish still taught in schools?

Patito de Hule

Most of my own Appalachian ancestors who were "Scotch-Irish" were also from England, and had English names. However, one bunch of them were French Huguenots with names like Pascal and Sevier.

Thessalonian

The Irish definitely learn the Irish language at school, together with English....

Richard Stanbery

Yeah, there were a bunch of them French protestants up here. The Dugger family, case in point. The surname Dugger, as it is spelled today, was originally something like Duggard. which is French.

Julius Ceasar Dugger came into this region in the 1750s or 1760s, and apparently had a Cherokee wife. He was a long hunter and mountain man. I think that he is an ancestor of about 80% of he Old Families.

Are you any kin to Julius Caesar Dugger? I am.
We might be cousins!

Thessalonian....I am a little shocked to see that the Irish learn the Irish language in school. It is such a reverse of the American policy. Was it always like that in Ireland? Has Irish always been taught in Irish schools?

Thessalonian

Until the Irish members of this board chime in, I would only add that nowadays, the Irish Republic does teach the native Irish language in schools.... However, out of 4.5 million Irish people (I refer to the Republic alone), only a few hundred thousands of them speak their native language fluently. It is also peculiar that in India, the new generation starts to replace its native languages with English!!! The way things are going, English will gradually replace other languages, in countries where it is official, next to other official native languages.

Patito de Hule

Scary, isn't it?
I already have met one 4th cousin in a thread like this.

Richard Stanbery

Yes...the Sevier family. As in John Sevier..


And so, we see that this man pretty much exemplifiies the Scots-Irish movement (his father seems to have been born in London?). He was the only governor of the State of Franklin, and the governor of Tennessee as well. He was a real leader among the Scots-Irish here in Appalachia. And he was of Heugenot lineage. Yes indeed...Scots-Irish.

Strange that there isnt more French influence in Appalachian dialect. But there is some. The word "dillatory" which means hesitatingly, may be of French influence?

Welcome, cuz. When are you going to retire and move back home to Appalachia?

As to the Irish language issue...is there only one dialect of Irish?


I too await the chiming in of the Irish members to elaborate on this. Perhaps America will one day make allowances for our own native toungue of Appalachia, like the Irish government is doing for the Irish native language?