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Old November 12th, 2012, 12:03 PM   #151

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Good lord!
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Old November 12th, 2012, 12:36 PM   #152

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Originally Posted by Viperlord View Post
So where are the primary sources on Sherman and Sheridan's men actually raping and killing on a mass scale? Sherman's letter, regardless of the context, is mere words; it doesn't show he was actually exterminating anyone. According to historian Mark Grimsley, civilian deaths during the March to the Sea were quite low; mainly they occurred when Union foraging parties were bushwhacked. I'm no fan of Philip Sheridan, but he engaged in a entirely practical and justified campaign of enemy property and resource destruction; I'm still not seeing the sources on his troops murdering anyone.
No doubt the question has intrigued me off and on since the early 90's. So far, i have seen little corroborating evidence (aside from hearsay) saying that Sherman or Sheridan supported mass killings and rapes. But i have read that there were plenty of Union troops, on record but unnamed, who reported being shamed by the actions conducted by many men wearing the same uniform for committing these very crimes. Are you saying that their being bushwhacked an excuse for doing these crimes?
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Old November 12th, 2012, 12:54 PM   #153

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I respectfully disagree. From my vantage point history can certainly be written by the losers. For instance, the south. The south, by far, has the better PR and is winning the history war.
I don't think so. After all, you should know that you are talking to a neanderthal, redneck, racist, kkk supporting Texas (Undisciplined) cowboy, don't you know? At least, that is how many in the country define the other via intellectual and popular culture medium. Winning the PR campaign!? If this is winning the campaign, then i sure don't ever want to experience the losing of it!

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I was once a big time neo confederate because of all the myths put out there as truth. In the course of arguing and defending things I was told(and are conventional wisdom) I found real history.
I've always been the same. No need for a Neo-suffix or anything of that sort. Pretty set in my ways and looking for a balanced perspective.

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Another example would be the "stealing" of the southwest from Mexico. Most people believe that claptrap too. The losers sometimes sit around and stew over the great "injustice" and invent stories about how they were wronged. Winners move on.
I don't know why, but even those who have lost everything have just as interesting a tale to tell, even if we don't agree with a position.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 01:03 PM   #154

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I don't think so.
Well, a good portion of the people think the war was about states' rights and had little to nothing to do with slavery. And the pleasant images of GWTW are also widely believed. Even among Unionists, I see Lee lovers. The man is seen as a god. I'd call that winning the PR war.

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After all, you should know that you are talking to a neanderthal, redneck, racist, kkk supporting Texas (Undisciplined) cowboy, don't you know?
I have no problem with any of that except the KKK bit. How anyone can support those people is beyond me. I have no problem with racists(however that is even defined). Rednecks aren't limited to the south. And I've got no problem with cowboys(save for the footballl team) or Texans.

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At least, that is how many in the country define the other via intellectual and popular culture medium. Winning the PR campaign!? If this is winning the campaign, then i sure don't ever want to experience the losing of it!
All I know is I have to hear ad nauseum about how Lincoln suspended habeus corpus but never a peep about how Davis did the same.

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I've always been the same. No need for a Neo-suffix or anything of that sort. Pretty set in my ways and looking for a balanced perspective.
You may have been the same, but the confederates are long gone. I've always been the same too- after truth. Unfortunately, I was told tall tales for quite some time and I never questioned them.


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I don't know why, but even those who have lost everything have just as interesting a tale to tell, even if we don't agree with a position.
As in every war. It's war, people suffer. That doesn't change the facts of who was right.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 01:11 PM   #155

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Lee may have lost more but he did not march through areas murdering women, children and innocent civilians as Sheridan and Sherman and Grant did.
when Sherman burned down Atlanta, he allowed civilians to evacuate beforehand so that only the infrastructure was destroyed and not the people. Confederate soldiers, on the other hand, threw civilians into buildings and then torched them. and at Andersonville, prisoners of Confederate soldiers died en masse because of starvation, disease, abuse, and outright execution and their bodies were thrown into mass graves

the tired comparison of the Confederates to another particular group which waged a war of aggression and lost in about five years is more accurate than it seems
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You say the South started the war but you give no concrete reasons how they started the war other than to mention things that other states objected to. You mention New York which was probably the most racist of all the northern states. The northern states didn't want slavery in their midst but they also didn't want blacks, or Irish for that matter, but they didn't want anyone else to have them. What were the Southerners to do? Slavery was on the steep decline at the start of the northern hostilities. Had the north not instigated the war slavery would have found its demise in a period shorter than the radical republicans keep it going.

The north may have won the war but was it really a victory or was it just a change of subjugation?
well, the unprovoked attack on Sumter, for one. it's my observation that the South (in general, with plenty of individual exceptions) has a long history of bitching and moaning whenever they don't get their way: refusing to sign the Declaration if it spoke against slavery; the Dred Scott decision and the fugitive slave laws let slavers do whatever the **** they wanted throughout the Union; the caning of Sumner was more or less unprovoked and, when bystanders tried to help the poor man, another Southerner threatened to shoot them; Bleeding Kansas; and perhaps the most egregious of recent examples, state-sanctioned racism and segregation following the end of the Civil War, and most visibly during the Civil Rights Movement

see, the whole "the ACW was about states' rights" argument seems to only apply to the slave states while they GLADLY subvert the rights of anyone who didn't agree with them
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Originally Posted by Yankee View Post
I respectfully disagree. From my vantage point history can certainly be written by the losers. For instance, the south. The south, by far, has the better PR and is winning the history war. I was once a big time neo confederate because of all the myths put out there as truth. In the course of arguing and defending things I was told(and are conventional wisdom) I found real history. Another example would be the "stealing" of the southwest from Mexico. Most people believe that claptrap too. The losers sometimes sit around and stew over the great "injustice" and invent stories about how they were wronged. Winners move on.
truth
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Old November 12th, 2012, 01:18 PM   #156

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This thread is drifting all over the place. Whatever happened to Robert E. Lee?
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Old November 12th, 2012, 01:21 PM   #157

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This thread is drifting all over the place. Whatever happened to Robert E. Lee?
*shrug* i see a post, i judge whether or not i can respond to it calmly and rationally so as not to be suspended, and i post
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Old November 12th, 2012, 01:22 PM   #158

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This thread is drifting all over the place. Whatever happened to Robert E. Lee?
It is? D'oh!
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Old November 12th, 2012, 01:23 PM   #159

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Winning the PR campaign!? If this is winning the campaign, then i sure don't ever want to experience the losing of it!
To a great extent the South did win the "PR" campaign with regard to the American Civil War for many years.

For many years American views of "Reconstruction" and the war itself were based on the viewpoint of "Gone With the Wind," which glorified the antebellum South and villified the "Yankees" that won the war. Even if you don't wish to believe that the book's "talking points" weren't incorperated into American history books, the book "Gone with the Wind" was extremely popular and was widely published. People reading that book would surely be influenced by it on some level or another. People may not always notice it, as "Gone With the Wind" was told as a "love story."

And this sort of viewpoint continued on. 1915 a silent movie by D.W. Griffith titled "Birth of a Nation" was made. In it, blacks were depicted as unintelligent, cruelly lustful and agressive toward white women, and the Klu Klux Klan was fully justified to murder and lynch African Americans. The movie was heavily criticized by the NAACP and some others for its racist tones, but it was a commercial success and won the support of Woodrow Wilson, then in the White House.

And in the book "Lies My Teacher Told Me," James Loewen further points out further Southern triumphs in the "PR campaign" when the Daughters of the Confederacy successfully got the state of Wisconsin to put up a memorial to Confederate War dead. Wisconsin did not send any regiments to fight for the Confederacy and in fact fought hard to crush it, yet they would put up a monument honoring those that killed Wisconsin citizens in the American Civil War.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 01:25 PM   #160

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I would offer that if the character and nobleness of Lee was deserving of such worshipful regard, then he would have frowned on the Lost Causer efforts to elevate their rebellion by vicarious attachment to the man. Had he lived long enough to witness the nonsense, that is.

"Madame, teach you sons to be Americans."- Robert Edward Lee to a still hostile southern mother at a post war reception.
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