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Old November 13th, 2012, 01:50 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Panthera tigris altaica View Post
From a self admitted neo-confederate to a neo-yankee, huh? Hey i don't care which way your views swing, but i would like to respectfully point out that it does sounds like you might be after all judging the man according to modern day morals rather than looking at the mores that existed during those times, first positively and now negatively. It wasn't so so clear cut as we like think our times are, which of course, they are not.

But anyways, no i am not offended. Most of us are trying to help further an understanding rather than correct a belief.
Very well said!
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Old November 13th, 2012, 02:09 PM   #232
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yes very good!
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Old November 13th, 2012, 03:27 PM   #233

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Originally Posted by Panthera tigris altaica View Post
From a self admitted neo-confederate to a neo-yankee, huh? Hey i don't care which way your views swing, but i would like to respectfully point out that it does sounds like you might be after all judging the man according to modern day morals rather than looking at the mores that existed during those times, first positively and now negatively. It wasn't so so clear cut as we like think our times are, which of course, they are not.

But anyways, no i am not offended. Most of us are trying to help further an understanding rather than correct a belief.
Absolutely disagree. The Catholic Church had been condemning chattel slavery for nearly 2000 years. The north knew it was wrong and had outlawed it. Other countries knew it was wrong and outlawed it. Lee, by his own words, called it evil- though he went on to blame God and convince himself he was doing good. Jefferson and other FFs knew it was wrong. If Lee was the slave, I bet he'd know real quick how wrong slavery is. These things are innate. We're not talking about going ten miles over the speed limit. We're talking about selling children- human trafficking and treating human being like chattel. This isn't a 21st century rule. In fact, slavery is probably more alive today then in Lee's time.




That being said, I can strongly dislike the Confederacy and still like Lee(though I don't). I manage to love the Revolutionary War and dislike Light Horse Lee(I wish I could like him, leaving a wife and kids is not redeemable in my book). I dislike the French Revolution and LaFayette's role in it and his infidelity to his wife, btu I still like him as an American hero. I can separate the man from the war. But in Lee's case I think his cause was bad and I think he was not a good guy. I dislike the Confederacy but still manage to like Longstreet. But with Lee I have heard the phrase "Christlike"(I'm not making this up) more than once.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 03:43 PM   #234
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Absolutely disagree. The Catholic Church had been condemning chattel slavery for nearly 2000 years. The north knew it was wrong and had outlawed it. Other countries knew it was wrong and outlawed it. Lee, by his own words, called it evil- though he went on to blame God and convince himself he was doing good. Jefferson and other FFs knew it was wrong. If Lee was the slave, I bet he'd know real quick how wrong slavery is. These things are innate. We're not talking about going ten miles over the speed limit. We're talking about selling children- human trafficking and treating human being like chattel. This isn't a 21st century rule. In fact, slavery is probably more alive today then in Lee's time.




That being said, I can strongly dislike the Confederacy and still like Lee(though I don't). I manage to love the Revolutionary War and dislike Light Horse Lee(I wish I could like him, leaving a wife and kids is not redeemable in my book). I dislike the French Revolution and LaFayette's role in it and his infidelity to his wife, btu I still like him as an American hero. I can separate the man from the war. But in Lee's case I think his cause was bad and I think he was not a good guy. I dislike the Confederacy but still manage to like Longstreet. But with Lee I have heard the phrase "Christlike"(I'm not making this up) more than once.
You aren't going to change my opinion that Lee was a decent man unless you provide evidence other than the fact that slavery is and was very wrong. That condemns pretty much everyone in the North and South for the first eight centuries of our existence as a nation, and all of our history as human beings, since slavery has existed everywhere throughout history.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 03:53 PM   #235

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You aren't going to change my opinion that Lee was a decent man
I'm not participating in this thread to change anyone's mind. I'm here to learn. I will use this learned info to argue with people who go on about saint Lee though

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unless you provide evidence other than the fact that slavery is and was very wrong. That condemns pretty much everyone in the North and South for the first eight centuries of our existence as a nation, and all of our history as human beings, since slavery has existed everywhere throughout history.
How does it condemn everyone in the north and south? Many, many people didn't own slaves. 8 centuries of our existence as a nation? Most people didn't own slaves and we haven't been a nation for 8 centuries. And a few slave owners did try to right the wrong. then you had men like Franklin and Adams who never owned slaves and always thought it was wrong. I am not sure how the duration of slavery changes anything? Murder has been around even longer and I don't see people defending murder or placing a time frame on when it became a sin.

I'm not trying to be smart with you but only slavery seems to get cut any slack. I know you aren't personally excusing slavery, but we tend to turn a blind eye to how evil it really was.

Great Godfather quote by the way.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 04:01 PM   #236
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You aren't going to change my opinion that Lee was a decent man unless you provide evidence other than the fact that slavery is and was very wrong. That condemns pretty much everyone in the North and South for the first eight centuries of our existence as a nation, and all of our history as human beings, since slavery has existed everywhere throughout history.
Oops, I meant decades, not centuries.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 04:06 PM   #237
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Thank you, I love that movie.

I guess I would want to know what in particular about Lee's history of owning slaves makes him any more accountable than northern leaders who profited from slavery for decades before the civil war. Is it simply because he owned slaves? What of Washington and Jefferson? Were they evil?
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Old November 13th, 2012, 04:14 PM   #238

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... then you had men like Franklin and Adams who never owned slaves and always thought it was wrong...
Oops:

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Almost all of our country's founding fathers owned slaves at one time or another, including Benjamin Franklin.

Franklin owned two slaves, George and King, who worked as personal servants, and his newspaper, the Pennsylvania Gazette, commonly ran notices involving the sale or purchase of slaves and contracts for indentured laborers.

Source: Benjamin Franklin . Citizen Ben . Abolitionist | PBS
Looks like another one bites the dust.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 04:18 PM   #239

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Thank you, I love that movie.

I guess I would want to know what in particular about Lee's history of owning slaves makes him any more accountable than northern leaders who profited from slavery for decades before the civil war. Is it simply because he owned slaves? What of Washington and Jefferson? Were they evil?
What are you calling profiting from slavery? A recipient of cotton? Or a slave trader? I'd say there isn't much difference between him and the latter.
The difference b/t Lee and Washington is that Washington grew up and changed his stance, he worked to thwart the spread of slavery and he freed his slaves after his death. That being said, owning them was wrong. But he did work to change. You won't see me excusing slavery because a hero of mine indulged. He was human, he was wrong. But he didn't fight a war to preserve and spread slavery. Big difference. I like Jefferson a lot less, but I think he too worked to limit slavery.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 04:21 PM   #240

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Oops:



Looks like another one bites the dust.
I stand corrected. He owned slaves but later became and abolitionist. I don't know what you mean about "another one bites the dust"? Are you accusing me of making other errors on this thread? If so where? Do we really need to be so personal?

From your same source:

Like most people of his period, Franklin initially believed that African slaves and their offspring were inferior to white Europeans and that they couldn't be educated. He began to question his beliefs when he visited a school where young African children were being taught. In 1763, he wrote a letter to an English friend where he stated, "I was on the whole much pleased, and from what I then saw, have conceived a higher opinion of the natural capacities of the black race, than I had ever before entertained. Their apprehension seems as quick, their memory as strong, and their docility in every respect equal to that of white children."
....Franklin was convinced that not only the slave trade, but slavery itself should be eliminated. He eventually freed his own two slaves.
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