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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:26 PM   #251

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I just wish that Lincoln could have helped mitigate the horrors of reconstruction. He was a great man, and his assassination led to a poor leader becoming President. It took decades of misery to recover.
I agree, although it still would have been a rough go.

Speaking of Lincoln, on the morning that he was shot, his son, Robert, handed him a portrait of Robert E. Lee. The President took a good long look at the portrait, and said "It is a good face; it is the face of a noble, noble, brave man." (Source)

I think if Lincoln could see the goodness in a man who caused him so much personal grief, we ought to be able to do the same.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 10:03 PM   #252

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I guess I would want to know what in particular about Lee's history of owning slaves makes him any more accountable than northern leaders who profited from slavery for decades before the civil war.
"If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether." - Abraham Lincoln
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Old November 13th, 2012, 10:14 PM   #253

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Originally Posted by Rongo View Post
I agree, although it still would have been a rough go.

Speaking of Lincoln, on the morning that he was shot, his son, Robert, handed him a portrait of Robert E. Lee. The President took a good long look at the portrait, and said "It is a good face; it is the face of a noble, noble, brave man." (Source)

I think if Lincoln could see the goodness in a man who caused him so much personal grief, we ought to be able to do the same.
Nice post.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 02:28 AM   #254

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We recently had a long discussion about Jefferson and Washington and their slaves on this thread:

http://www.historum.com/american-his...jefferson.html




It is a "bad" quality of the human race that we tend to justify things when our lifestyle depends on it. We certainly could give up our Ipods and Nikes, but we've become dependent on them, so we justify owning them instead. I think Abraham Lincoln summed it up pretty well in an 1862 conversation with abolitionist Moncure Conway:
Sorry, but you can't just write it off as "humans will be humans." It was wicked. And I find it very ironic that the south saw little wrong with slavery but was hypersenstive when they thought their rights were being questioned. I don't have to justify owning nikes and ipods. Owning them isn't a sin. Owning a human being like chattel is a sin.
Not too long ago, the Muslims owned Christians as slaves. What do you think the southerners would say about that? Would they excuse it because the Muslims don't think it's wrong- it's how they were raised? Or would they condemn it? If so, wouldn't that speak to their innate knowledge that such slavery is wrong?
I'm not too deep into the Jefferson thread yet but it looks like(so far) that his hardening on slavery was overstated. And it is mentioned that he helped outlaw the selling of slaves from Africa in Virginia. So he did have compunction about it and acted on it. Whether or not he took that full tilt is on him. He clearly had the instinct that it was wrong and made moves to stop its progress. great thread though. I'm now even more torn over him than before.

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I just wish that Lincoln could have helped mitigate the horrors of reconstruction. He was a great man, and his assassination led to a poor leader becoming President. It took decades of misery to recover.
Again, it wouldn't have been so horrible if the south didn't continue to fight. Killing random Black people and republicans made Reconstruction worse. I don't know that much about Johnson, but wasn't he a southern sympathizer? Perhaps things were bad because he was letting them get away with murder? I read recently that Unionist in the south were abused long after the war ended. It's so disturbing to read about these confederates abusing people then crying over any slight towards them.

Last edited by Yankee; November 14th, 2012 at 02:59 AM.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 03:15 AM   #255

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Sorry, but you can't just write it off as "humans will be humans." It was wicked. And I find it very ironic that the south saw little wrong with slavery but was hypersenstive when they thought their rights were being questioned. I don't have to justify owning nikes and ipods. Owning them isn't a sin. Owning a human being like chattel is a sin.
Well I'm wondering what it is that makes you the great arbiter of what was or wasn't "wicked" and what was or wasn't a "sin". Hundreds of thousands of people back then believed it was not wicked and that it was not a sin. Just like you believe it's not a sin now to own Nikes or an Ipod. But there are people in this world right now who believe it's wrong to own those things. And who's to say that in some future generation it will be widely believed that we were wrong? Does that make us all "sinners"? Or is it only a sin when YOU say it's a sin?
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Old November 14th, 2012, 05:14 AM   #256

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Well I'm wondering what it is that makes you the great arbiter of what was or wasn't "wicked" and what was or wasn't a "sin". Hundreds of thousands of people back then believed it was not wicked and that it was not a sin. Just like you believe it's not a sin now to own Nikes or an Ipod. But there are people in this world right now who believe it's wrong to own those things. And who's to say that in some future generation it will be widely believed that we were wrong? Does that make us all "sinners"? Or is it only a sin when YOU say it's a sin?
Nothing makes me the great arbiter, nor hae I claimed to be. Hundreds of thousands of people thought it was ok, but millions thought it wasn't. So not only is popular vote not the arbitor of sin, it wouldn't have won on popular vote. People have been condemning slavery for thousands of years. Even though Jefferson particiapte he admitted errors. Same with Washington and Franklin. They knew it was wrong. They did it anyway. However I will concede, as Scripture tells us, God gave them over to a darkened conscience. It's still wrong, though. It was wrong when the muslims did it to Christians and it would be wrong if you were made a slave. Why do we excuse this time frame of the confederacy?
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Old November 14th, 2012, 05:20 AM   #257

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Nothing makes me the great arbiter, nor hae I claimed to be. Hundreds of thousands of people thought it was ok, but millions thought it wasn't. So not only is popular vote not the arbitor of sin, it wouldn't have won on popular vote. People have been condemning slavery for thousands of years. Even though Jefferson particiapte he admitted errors. Same with Washington and Franklin. They knew it was wrong. They did it anyway. However I will concede, as Scripture tells us, God gave them over to a darkened conscience. It's still wrong, though. It was wrong when the muslims did it to Christians and it would be wrong if you were made a slave. Why do we excuse this time frame of the confederacy?
I am not excusing anything. I believe slavery is wrong, was wrong, and has always been wrong. However I also understand that other people in other places and other times had differing opinions and differing points of view, and I'm not about to condemn them all as "sinners" because they didn't see things the same way I do.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 05:33 AM   #258

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I am not excusing anything. I believe slavery is wrong, was wrong, and has always been wrong. However I also understand that other people in other places and other times had differing opinions and differing points of view, and I'm not about to condemn them all as "sinners" because they didn't see things the same way I do.
I'm not. Well, I do think they were sinning, but I am a sinner too. The difference is they were fighting to keep a wicked institution. That's what I have a problem with. And no, I'm not condemning the confederate soldiers. I'm talking abot the leadership, which would include Lee.
And I'm not condemning them for not seeing things as I do. I am saying it was wrong and they knew it. It has nothing to do with any time frame. Frequently they even witness against themselves.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 05:36 AM   #259

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Reading between these two posts(Lee and Jefferson) I've discovered part of the reason I have a problem with Lee. I think Jefferson did a lot of good for this country, far more than Lee. But it is common and acceptable to air his dirty laundry. But for some reason, we can not do this with Lee. He is spotless and beyond reproach. None of the FFs share this reputation or "force field." Why is Lee so special. Keep in mind this is only part of the reason(and newly discovered).
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Old November 14th, 2012, 05:47 AM   #260

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Reading between these two posts(Lee and Jefferson) I've discovered part of the reason I have a problem with Lee. I think Jefferson did a lot of good for this country, far more than Lee. But it is common and acceptable to air his dirty laundry. But for some reason, we can not do this with Lee. He is spotless and beyond reproach. None of the FFs share this reputation or "force field." Why is Lee so special. Keep in mind this is only part of the reason(and newly discovered).
There is no problem on this forum posting objective, fact-based criticism of Lee (at least not with most posters ). The problem comes when people start making personal attacks, or post information that is not supported by fact. And that will be true whether the subject is Lee, Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington, Grant, Sherman...
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