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Old November 15th, 2012, 11:14 AM   #341

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You are, and it's getting deeper with every post you make. You're advocating an indefensible position and defend it with every post.
What position did I advocate?

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Disguising agenda as history is.
I have no disgused anything. I have been very upfront in what I want and how I feel.

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The fact that even those who hold the pro-northern viewpoint (such as VL and to a lesser extent myself) deplore your agenda should be telling you something. Viperlord is alluding to the fact that you are only looking for tabloid-style garbage to smear the reputation of Lee.
OK, you deplore my "agenda." Can we move on? I'm not looking for tabliod garbage. I heard things, I want to see if they are true. If they are then, it's not my fault if they are tabloid garbage. Excuse me for wanting to go beyond Robert Lee Christ.

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And therein lies part of the problem. If you only get your information from the WWW then it is going to be faulty. The WWW is notorious for being inaccurate at best and agenda-driven at worst. At the very least, books go through an editorial vetting process to ensure that garbage isn't published (for the most part.)
It's funny because I read the reviews on books and I see that people say they are very biased and frequently inaccurate. Not all, but many.
I'm sorry my method of getting info from the web is upsetting. I'm sorry for trying to vet those things here. Once this site stops allowing that, I will stop.

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While I wouldn't presume to speak for others,
Too late, you already did. At least twice I believe.
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I would be happy to offer what limited help I can to point you in the right direction-offering suggestions for sources and so forth. But what I absolutely won't do is take part in historical character assassination for the sake of an agenda. So keep on with your smear campaign. Just don't ask me to be a part.
1. then don't take part
2. Where have I smeared him?
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Old November 15th, 2012, 11:37 AM   #342

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Originally Posted by diddyriddick View Post
You are, and it's getting deeper with every post you make. You're advocating an indefensible position and defend it with every post.

Fact checking is not frowned upon here. Disguising agenda as history is.

The fact that even those who hold the pro-northern viewpoint (such as VL and to a lesser extent myself) deplore your agenda should be telling you something. Viperlord is alluding to the fact that you are only looking for tabloid-style garbage to smear the reputation of Lee.

While I wouldn't presume to speak for others, I would be happy to offer what limited help I can to point you in the right direction-offering suggestions for sources and so forth. But what I absolutely won't do is take part in historical character assassination for the sake of an agenda. So keep on with your smear campaign. Just don't ask me to be a part.
After looking over the past 5 pages, I see no evidence of Yankee conducting a smear campaign, but merely seeking the truth if it is out there.

So far, there has been evidence presented to debunk some of it, but the other tidbits are interesting to me as other people. We should never totally discount something because it goes against what we have learned in the past or sounds outrageous. Every so often there is proof that what we have learned to be rock solid truth may not be so. If it is hogwash or valid, then let's see the proof... curiosity didn't hurt the historian :P
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Old November 15th, 2012, 11:41 AM   #343

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Originally Posted by monsieurdl View Post
After looking over the past 5 pages, I see no evidence of Yankee conducting a smear campaign, but merely seeking the truth if it is out there.

So far, there has been evidence presented to debunk some of it, but the other tidbits are interesting to me as other people. We should never totally discount something because it goes against what we have learned in the past or sounds outrageous. Every so often there is proof that what we have learned to be rock solid truth may not be so. If it is hogwash or valid, then let's see the proof... curiosity didn't hurt the historian :P
The point is that the person Yankee should be asking for proof is the person who posted the allegations. I wonder if she's done that?

It is not possible to prove a negative. Furthermore, the burden of proof is on the person making an allegation that defies conventional wisdom. We could all spend our entire lives trying to debunk all the absurd allegations that come the way of this forum. And those who want to believe them will never be convinced anyway.

I'm satisfied that no credible historian has ever made these allegations. Until someone comes up with convincing evidence to support them, I for one am not wasting the time, energy or electrons on them. We had the same situation with an alleged Sherman quote a few days ago here. A waste of time.

Last edited by Rongo; November 15th, 2012 at 11:48 AM. Reason: Sherman quote
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Old November 15th, 2012, 12:08 PM   #344
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Here it is. In bold are the things I am not sure are true. If anyone has any insight on them I'd appreciate it.
Lee kept, in his own handwriting, in his own account book, a “Hunting List” — he wrote HUNTING LIST — of slaves he most wanted to capture, and he paid almost obsessive attention to the young slave girls he wanted to capture.

Lee kept track of what city they might be in, what street, what time of day, and mostly, what shade of skin their infant children had. Lee was very focused on paying to get the mothers back who had very light colored skin, who could pass for white, is what he wrote.

He paid six times the normal bounty to get one 14 year old girl back. When she was caught and the bounty hunter returned her, Lee immediately had her tortured. He screamed at her during her torture.

Then Lee had sold the infant, and rented the mother out.

Lee sold every infant born to the slaves his wife inherited — he could not sell those slaves, by terms of the will, but Lee tried repeatedly to break the will, going into Virginia Courts three times DURING the Civil War. Yes, Lee took time out of the CIvil War to take this matter to Virginia Courts, which turned his request down three times.

BUt while he was doing that, he was also sellilng the infants from these young girls.

Now, why was Lee so obsessed with getting these slave girls back? And who fathered their children? We don’t know who fathered their children, but the girls themselves apparently were light skinned, and their infants even more so.

We know that girls who were light skinned, especially if they had smooth hair and could pass for white, sold for very good sums, and were usually bought for the whore house trade in the deep south, where they were forced to work as sex slaves.

If you think Lee was anything like the Myths the South has pumped up for 150 years, think again. Let’s look at the REAL LEE.

Lee regularly tortured his slaves, and sold their infants. Far from being loved by his slaves, they detested him, and most ran away. They ran away despite the death and torture that were pomised them.

Lee’s slaves said “he was the meanest man I ever saw”.

Lee was also a coward, contrary to the lunatic myth of his bravery. Longstreet reported that Lee always got as far away from battle as he possibly could. Longstreet also wrote about Lee often complaining about his health, and trying to get relieved of command, so he could get out of the Army, the last six months of the war. Davis turned him down.

Lee ran from Richmond on the false rumor of a breach in the line (the line being the massive earth works Lee had over 100,000 slaves build). Lee did not even check if the rumor of a breach was true, he just fled, and ordered the warehouses burned as he dashed off.

The fires Lee ordered set spread, nearly burning the whole town down, because no males were around to put it out. The mayor of RIchmond , 80 years old, had to ride out to the Union troops the next morning under a white flat, and ASK the Union soldiers to come in and help put out the fires.

Lee kept running, despite his aides appeals to stand somewhere and fight. Lee tried to find someplace to surrender for several days, and once he found it, he snuck off from his aides, put on an immaculate uniform, and went to surrernder.

Lee was ordered NOT to surrender by Davis, but Lee did anyway. He would look like the coward he was, if he just surrendered himself personally. So he surrendered his whole army — against orders.

Lee was not only a [explicit] in war, he was a [explicit] around Davis. Lee knew the war was futile and the longer it dragged out, the more men died needlessly. But Lee had often sent his men to die needlessly, he reallyl didn’t care.

For six months AFTER Lee had told others it was futile, he was still sending others to die, and kill, knowing it was over. But he was afraid to confront Davis. Davis was a guy Lee had brownnosed for years, and Lee never once in his life stood up to Davis. Rather than tell Davis the truth, Lee did what Nazi generals did — tell Davis (Hitler) what he wanted to hear.

Lee was simply too afraid to tell Davis the truth, so he kept ordering men to their death. But when Lee personally got near danger, he ran, and then ran off, to surrender.

Lee was nothing like you folks have been told.


wait were did you get all these "facts"
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Old November 15th, 2012, 12:12 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Yankee View Post
What position did I advocate?

I have no disgused anything. I have been very upfront in what I want and how I feel.

OK, you deplore my "agenda." Can we move on? I'm not looking for tabliod garbage. I heard things, I want to see if they are true. If they are then, it's not my fault if they are tabloid garbage. Excuse me for wanting to go beyond Robert Lee Christ.
Going to be tough going beyond that, cause the man was great; his character impeccable. The burden of proof lies with you, not us.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 12:14 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by monsieurdl View Post
After looking over the past 5 pages, I see no evidence of Yankee conducting a smear campaign, but merely seeking the truth if it is out there.

So far, there has been evidence presented to debunk some of it, but the other tidbits are interesting to me as other people. We should never totally discount something because it goes against what we have learned in the past or sounds outrageous. Every so often there is proof that what we have learned to be rock solid truth may not be so. If it is hogwash or valid, then let's see the proof... curiosity didn't hurt the historian :P
Nobody has debunked the "fact" Lincoln slept with prostitutes all the time either.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 01:01 PM   #347

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Originally Posted by Rongo View Post
The point is that the person Yankee should be asking for proof is the person who posted the allegations. I wonder if she's done that?

It is not possible to prove a negative. Furthermore, the burden of proof is on the person making an allegation that defies conventional wisdom. We could all spend our entire lives trying to debunk all the absurd allegations that come the way of this forum. And those who want to believe them will never be convinced anyway.

I'm satisfied that no credible historian has ever made these allegations. Until someone comes up with convincing evidence to support them, I for one am not wasting the time, energy or electrons on them. We had the same situation with an alleged Sherman quote a few days ago here. A waste of time.
I think waiting for someone to prove these statements is far better than spending post after post arguing over it methinks... it would die out fast that way if nothing was presented.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 01:02 PM   #348

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Originally Posted by Unrevised View Post
Nobody has....

Mod Edit: Off topic


Gives a new meaning to the words "Lincoln slept here" if it was, huh?
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Old November 15th, 2012, 01:11 PM   #349

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Originally Posted by Unrevised View Post
Nobody has.....
Mod edit: Red herring and questionable history aside, this is NOT about Abraham Lincoln. I have asked you twice to limit your posting to the OP and you have twice ignored me. This is the third time. Please don't make me ask again.

If you feel compelled to discuss that topic feel free to start another thread.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 02:05 PM   #350
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Some of you guys really want to fight the Civil War again. Maybe you could put on blue and grey uniforms and shoot at each other.
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