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Old November 17th, 2012, 06:10 AM   #471

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That one is easy to understand. Whatever faults Lee had, you will bring them to everyone's attention. You will focus on those faults.
I didn't bring this to the table. I merely want to know more. I'm not focusing on the faults, I'm inquiring am inquiring and it's true I don't like him. I thought we put this behind us? Do we need to reharsh this argument?
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Old November 17th, 2012, 06:16 AM   #472
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I didn't bring this to the table. I merely want to know more. I'm not focusing on the faults, I'm inquiring am inquiring and it's true I don't like him. I thought we put this behind us? Do we need to reharsh this argument?
Of course not. I was explaining what I perceived, nothing more. We all know you don't like Lee. I hope that moving forward you will be able to lighten up and not take everything as an attack. I understand why you think that now, but we really are a good group of people on Historum and we accept people here. What is it that you are looking for anyway?
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Old November 17th, 2012, 06:18 AM   #473

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Of course not. I was explaining what I perceived, nothing more. We all know you don't like Lee. I hope that moving forward you will be able to lighten up and not take everything as an attack. I understand why you think that now, but we really are a good group of people on Historum and we accept people here. What is it that you are looking for anyway?
my bad. I've got my back up a little. Well, I'm off to the Finnish Bazaar in DC. Enjoy the time without me on the forum
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Old November 17th, 2012, 08:13 AM   #474
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my bad. I've got my back up a little. Well, I'm off to the Finnish Bazaar in DC. Enjoy the time without me on the forum
yep when you are in DC make sure to read some GOOD books on R.E. lee and come back with good arguments!!!! And do some good research!
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Old November 17th, 2012, 08:48 AM   #475
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my bad. I've got my back up a little. Well, I'm off to the Finnish Bazaar in DC. Enjoy the time without me on the forum
A Finnish Marketplace in DC? What on earth? How did the Fins get in there?
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Old November 17th, 2012, 10:06 AM   #476

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A Finnish Marketplace in DC? What on earth? How did the Fins get in there?
If you have ever been to Embassy Row in DC, you will see every possible nationally represented. I highly recommend it, and also a trip to the Naval Observatory!
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Old November 17th, 2012, 11:49 AM   #477

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That's the one. Wert's analysis and research are excellent. Among other things, he dispels the Longstreet-was-late at Gettysburg myth. What I found particularly troubling about Longstreet after reading Wert's book was that he accepted a commission/salary from both the USA and CSA simultaneously.

General James Longstreet: The Confederacy's Most Controversial Soldier: Jeffry D. Wert: 9780671892876: Amazon.com: Books
This may be a bit of a distraction, but couldn't many Confederate officers do that? Many, if not all of them were US Army officers before their states seceded, including Lee (who was offered command of all Union Armies before Virginia seceded), and in addition, Longstreet would serve as Grant's minister to Turkey and so Longstreet actually returned to the service of the US after the Civil War...
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Old November 17th, 2012, 12:08 PM   #478

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A Finnish Marketplace in DC? What on earth? How did the Fins get in there?
There was a shocking amount of Finnish people at the bazaar. There is a decent size Nordic and Scandinavian population in DC. All through November they have weekend bazaars- Icelandic, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, and Danish.

*edit to add that Delaware was once "New Sweden," and was flooded with a load of Fins.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 12:11 PM   #479

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Even Lee's biggest detractors would have a hard time with that.
Most of the sources I've seen with regard to Lee have generally hailed him as the south's best commander because of his battlefield victories between 1862-1863. The one source I've found that has argued that Lee wasn't was Bevin Alexander's "How the South Could Have Won the Civil War." In that he largely makes the argument for Stonewall Jackson for pushing for a massive attack directly following First Bull Run when the Union Army in the east was essentially in shambles, and then doing to the north what Sherman did to Georgia and the Carolinas later in the war...

After that, Alexander makes the argument that Jackson began to turn to more defensive tactics to try and secure a crushing victory on the same scale as First Bull Run, and from what I could gather from the book, mirroring the Second Bull Run battle. However, Jackson found himself at odds with both Lee, who favored attacking the Union army and Davis who advocated a purely defensive strategy until Britain and/or France came to the South's rescue.

Davis's strategy failed following the Emancipation Proclamation when neither Britain nor France decided to challenge their local abolitionist lobbies (or France wasn't going to act without British support)... and that left the clash between Lee and Jackson, which Lee ultimately won when Jackson was wounded at Chancellorsville.

The book does a good job critiqueing the strategic situation the South was in during the war, but in discussion with other people here, primarily Viperlord, I'd think that Alexander's speculation on what would have happened had Jackson gotten what he wanted after 1st Bull Run would have been tough. The Confederate Army was just as green as the Union army was in that battle, and it's only the good forturne for the South that the Northern army broke first.

But I've never seen anything that would suggest that Jubal Early was better then Lee.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 03:03 PM   #480

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Exactly. I know he was a brave soldier in Mexico(so was Grant)I'm sure he was more than competent as a general, but I think most of his praise is undeserved. Ken Burn's "Civil War" doc stated that his soldiers called him "Granny Lee" and "The Failure" at the start. Not mentioned in the doc are "Evacuating Lee" and "King of Spades." He was smart but he also had exceptional soldiers, good fortune of bad opposing generals, and "home state advantage." Did he win any battles outside VA?
If you count the Mexican War, you could say yes, as I believe Lee played a major role for Winfield Scott's advance from Veracruz to Mexico City.
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