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Old November 13th, 2012, 07:13 PM   #31

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It's not much in the way of real contact with natives and all, but there were supposedly Basque fishermen off the shores of Newfoundland in the 1400's or so.
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Leif Ericson of Iceland and Zheng He of Ming Dynasty China both landed on the Americas before Columbus.
Maybe, maybe not, but please, please provide some basis for any controversial claims. We can't just have statements flying around as if they're trivial. Otherwise we're just running on a hamster wheel. What's the point of discussing this, trying to learn something, if everyone just shows up for five minutes, blurts out a baseless claim, then leaves.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 07:30 PM   #32

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I had been given to understand that if there had been significant pre-Columbian contact between the Old and New Worlds, the American natives would have been exposed to bubonic plague, chicken pox, cholera, common cold, diphtheria, influenza, leprosy, malaria, measles, scarlet fever, smallpox, typhoid, typhus, whooping cough, yellow fever, and yaws prior to Columbus' arrival, and so, the descendants of the survivors thereby would have had some resistance to these diseases by 1492.
I believe it is likely that people from the Old World often accidentally ended up in the New World but I doubt their numbers would have been great enough to have a good chance of igniting a pandemic. Kind of like how a few sparks over dry grass has a small chance of igniting a wildfire. By contrast post-Columbian journeys would have been like napalm.

And it makes sense, too. If their numbers were large, that would usually be associated with an intentional journey. But people arriving in the New World would have been stray fishermen or North Sea sailors, only a handful of men, probably too scared to come into contact with natives anyway.

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Old November 13th, 2012, 07:52 PM   #33

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I believe it is likely that people from the Old World often accidentally ended up in the New World but I doubt their numbers would have been great enough to have a good chance of igniting a pandemic. Kind of like how a few sparks over dry grass has a small chance of igniting a wildfire. By contrast post-Columbian journeys would have been like napalm.

And it makes sense, too. If their numbers were large, that would usually be associated with an intentional journey. But people arriving in the New World would have been stray fishermen or North Sea sailors, only a handful of men, probably too scared to come into contact with natives anyway.
That's what I was talking about when I referred to the Basques. There are lots of stories and theories about Basque fishermen in the Grand Banks off Newfoundland, but there's nothing suggesting they met natives. To be honest, this could cast doubt considering that the natives of Newfoundland, the Beothuk, were one of the few tribes that went far from the coast, having made a canoe that could handle the waters. Then again, the Beothuk were never a populous tribe. The Beothuk do seem to have been the first people to meet the Europeans, the Norse to be specific. And they were one of the first to meet the English, the term "Red Indian" having originally referred to the Beothuks who uniformly painted themselves and everything they owned with red ochre.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 03:01 PM   #34

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I guess the Welsh really didn't get to North America first. But it's fun to speculate. Whereas the English were going off to the Crusades, the Welsh faced the opposite direction; westward. Hmm...

Exploring around in my (supposed) maternal tree, there were participants in the crusades among English and French relatives. Even Eleanor of Aquitaine (grandmother to a female on my line) went to the Holy Land, and came back in one piece. But I haven't seen any Welshmen in my tree who went on one of those crusades.

There was an Irish monk, wasn't there?; who supposedly made it across the North Atlantic (and came back?).
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Old November 15th, 2012, 03:49 PM   #35

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I guess the Welsh really didn't get to North America first. But it's fun to speculate. Whereas the English were going off to the Crusades, the Welsh faced the opposite direction; westward. Hmm...

Exploring around in my (supposed) maternal tree, there were participants in the crusades among English and French relatives. Even Eleanor of Aquitaine (grandmother to a female on my line) went to the Holy Land, and came back in one piece. But I haven't seen any Welshmen in my tree who went on one of those crusades.

There was an Irish monk, wasn't there?; who supposedly made it across the North Atlantic (and came back?).
St. Brendan? Another folktale with about as much proof and factuality, or perhaps to be more accurate a religious story later claimed to have been a factual account of a journey to America because people liked the idea. There are theories about every nation and culture having voyaged to the Americas before Columbus, and most of them seem to compete with eachother. The vast majority of Pre-Columbian trans-Atlantic contact theories are mostly nothing more than nationalist fantasies, to tell the truth.

Also, there were many prominent Welshmen who went on crusade, though oddly not any princes far as I'm aware.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 04:09 PM   #36

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I'm shocked the more obvious answer has not been presented already. Clearly Aliens discovered America long before Columbus!

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Old November 15th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #37

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This tidbit of speculation is supposed to have a basis in fact, although my memory of it is vague. And that is two or three dark-skinned men were found dead out on one of the Azores, or was it Madeira Island; before Columbus. It looks like native Americans discovered Europe! Why would they try for it? Possibly they came in contact with European fishermen who were drying and salting their catch on shore in Newfoundland. And they wanted to see where those fishermen came from.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 12:23 AM   #38

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Do the Mormons believe that Hebrews went to the Americas before Columbus?
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Old November 16th, 2012, 04:16 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speculatin' View Post
I guess the Welsh really didn't get to North America first. But it's fun to speculate. Whereas the English were going off to the Crusades, the Welsh faced the opposite direction; westward. Hmm...

Exploring around in my (supposed) maternal tree, there were participants in the crusades among English and French relatives. Even Eleanor of Aquitaine (grandmother to a female on my line) went to the Holy Land, and came back in one piece. But I haven't seen any Welshmen in my tree who went on one of those crusades.

There was an Irish monk, wasn't there?; who supposedly made it across the North Atlantic (and came back?).
'Welsh' people did go on crusade, of at least volunteered to, according to Gerallt Cymro/Geraldus Cambrensis.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 04:56 PM   #40

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Do the Mormons believe that Hebrews went to the Americas before Columbus?
Yeah - something like that.
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