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Old October 7th, 2012, 04:03 AM   #151

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Originally Posted by Mandate of Heaven View Post
Jefferson had always been somewhat of a hypocrite. On one hand, he went on the public saying he's all for the masses of common people on countless occasion. On the other hand, he was one of the most aristocratic president America has ever seen. He spent in excess of $10,000 on wine alone in a year in the White House. Just a small example.
I also found it interesting that while Alexander Hamilton exhibited friendly overtures towards the newly-independent Haiti, Thomas Jefferson had a distinctly anti-Haiti approach, and cooperated with France to make life difficult for Haiti. It does seem that his status as a slave-owner, and his perceptions of black inferiority, influenced his foreign policy as well as his domestic policy.
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Old October 7th, 2012, 10:44 AM   #152

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Originally Posted by shivfan View Post
I also found it interesting that while Alexander Hamilton exhibited friendly overtures towards the newly-independent Haiti, Thomas Jefferson had a distinctly anti-Haiti approach, and cooperated with France to make life difficult for Haiti. It does seem that his status as a slave-owner, and his perceptions of black inferiority, influenced his foreign policy as well as his domestic policy.
And does the president at the time of the slave rebellion, G.Washington, get a free
pass on his slave holding views? When the rebellion broke out, Washington authorized
about $400,000 and arms to the slave owners and French government to put down
the slave revolt.

His response to the lose of slaves during the revolution "As president, he insisted that the British compensate Americans for slaves spirited away during the Revolution." [1]
Additionally Washington "made a personal donation of $250 to relieve the affected white colonists." [2]
In a letter to Alexander Spotswood in November 1794, he wrote, "I do not like to even think, much less talk of." (slavery)[3]

Washington, like Jefferson, deplored the brutal treatment of their slaves,but, that didn't stop
him from getting tough things done when needed. When he had a slave that refused to
work, he wrote his manager Anthony Whitting to tell him that "I will ship him off as I did
Waggoner Jack for the West Indies, where he will have no opportunity to play such pranks."
[4]

Another case of a slave, this time a female who did not work was brought to
Washington's attention. He replied, "Your treatment of Charlotte was very proper and if
she, or any other of the servants, will not do their duty by fair means or are impertinent,
correction (as the only alternative) must be administered."
[5]

So it is easy to see if a slave needed beating, he was ok with it and much like
Jefferson, he did not like slavery but slavery provided him a rich, wealthy and
comfortable life style and he was in no hurry to give that up no matter how many
pretty words, or lack of, either one wrote. Both men just did not want to talk about it.


1. Ron Chernow, Washington: A Life (New York: Penguin Press, 2010),639.
2. Ibid.,710.
3. Ibid., 709.
4. Ibid.,640.
5. Ibid.,640.
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Old October 10th, 2012, 10:28 AM   #153

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Originally Posted by shivfan View Post
I also found it interesting that while Alexander Hamilton exhibited friendly overtures towards the newly-independent Haiti, Thomas Jefferson had a distinctly anti-Haiti approach, and cooperated with France to make life difficult for Haiti. It does seem that his status as a slave-owner, and his perceptions of black inferiority, influenced his foreign policy as well as his domestic policy.
I wouldn't call it anti-Haiti, but pro-France. Thomas Jefferson would do anything to retain his expensive lifestyle and his alliance with all things French. These "revelations" aren't new, that's for sure.
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Old October 10th, 2012, 12:30 PM   #154

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Originally Posted by tjadams View Post
And does the president at the time of the slave rebellion, G.Washington, get a free
pass on his slave holding views? When the rebellion broke out, Washington authorized
about $400,000 and arms to the slave owners and French government to put down
the slave revolt.

His response to the lose of slaves during the revolution "As president, he insisted that the British compensate Americans for slaves spirited away during the Revolution." [1]
Additionally Washington "made a personal donation of $250 to relieve the affected white colonists." [2]
In a letter to Alexander Spotswood in November 1794, he wrote, "I do not like to even think, much less talk of." (slavery)[3]

Washington, like Jefferson, deplored the brutal treatment of their slaves,but, that didn't stop
him from getting tough things done when needed. When he had a slave that refused to
work, he wrote his manager Anthony Whitting to tell him that "I will ship him off as I did
Waggoner Jack for the West Indies, where he will have no opportunity to play such pranks."
[4]

Another case of a slave, this time a female who did not work was brought to
Washington's attention. He replied, "Your treatment of Charlotte was very proper and if
she, or any other of the servants, will not do their duty by fair means or are impertinent,
correction (as the only alternative) must be administered."
[5]

So it is easy to see if a slave needed beating, he was ok with it and much like
Jefferson, he did not like slavery but slavery provided him a rich, wealthy and
comfortable life style and he was in no hurry to give that up no matter how many
pretty words, or lack of, either one wrote. Both men just did not want to talk about it.


1. Ron Chernow, Washington: A Life (New York: Penguin Press, 2010),639.
2. Ibid.,710.
3. Ibid., 709.
4. Ibid.,640.
5. Ibid.,640.
Did you enjoy the book? I just purchased it the other day but haven't taken a look yet.
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Old October 10th, 2012, 12:37 PM   #155

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B_it is a beast of a book to read coming in at little more than 800 pages.
I've read a great deal of it, but not all. From what I have read it is well written and
well researched. I found nothing gigantically new in the book, but it is
nicely cobbled together. You should enjoy it.
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Old October 10th, 2012, 12:38 PM   #156

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Bill Barker does a fine job at what Mr. Jefferson might have sounded like
and appeared like in public.
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Old October 10th, 2012, 09:15 PM   #157

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjadams View Post
Meet Thomas Jefferson (1 of 9) - YouTube
Meet Thomas Jefferson (2 of 9) - YouTube

Bill Barker does a fine job at what Mr. Jefferson might have sounded like
and appeared like in public.
He bears a striking resemblance based on what we know and perhaps with the accent, but Jefferson spoke very softly and inaudibly in front of audiences due to his discomfort in public speaking.
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Old October 10th, 2012, 10:25 PM   #158

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Don't forget you're preaching to the choir here ML about Jefferson.
But, I must remind myself that perhaps others don't know that little
nugget about him. But for the presentation, Mr. Barker has to speak up
for the sake of the audience.

I felt the actor Stephen Dillane, from HBO's 2008 "John Adams"
did a perfect job of portraying Jefferson.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 04:04 AM   #159

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I've heard that Washington's bout with smallpox made him sterile. I don't want to steer this topic even further off course(but I'm gonna), I appreciate aspects of Jefferson but I have a hard time with his falling out with Adams. Didn't he stab a friend in the back? Didn't this lead to the rumor of his fooling around with slaves? I mean, was he not reaping what he had sown?
Also, I once heard someone make the claim that Charles Carroll feared the Catholic Church would have to go back underground when Jefferson was elected. I've never found any evidence of this, but clearly Carroll found something in him to be very anti-Catholic. Any insight?
Is it true that Martha Washington detested him? If so, why?

I don't think it's true about Washington and the slave. I think(mere opinion) that Martha's half sister being a slave deeply affected him. I'm sure it was hurtful for Martha and he saw that. Having to live with a living reminding that your father was a cad then having to be responsible for your own family member as a slave. I always assumed it was the same for Jefferson. His wife had 6 half siblings that were slaves.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 09:18 AM   #160

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Originally Posted by Yankee View Post
.. Didn't he stab a friend in the back?
Yes and no. Jefferson first met Adams at the 1775 Continental Congress in Philadelphia
and worked with him in 1784 when they served as ambassadors.
The two men were as opposite as two can be, but did share a common goal
of American independence. Naturally two people cannot agree on everything
& Jefferson and Adams were not immune. Jefferson did have a determined
streak in him when he set his mind to something and his fallout with
Adams over the presidential election was a big one. Before that, the
Adams family and Jefferson were close and very cordial and the two men
being a bit stubborn, fueled by an angry Mrs. Adams, parted ways for
decades. Both men didn't handle it well.

Quote:
Didn't this lead to the rumor of his fooling around with slaves?
Not really. James T. Callender was a 'hired-pen' for sale & had no problems using
his writing skills to attack political parties. He came to early fame for exposing
the affair Alexander Hamilton was having with the married Maria Reynolds and
possible blackmail charges which caused him to resign as Sec. of the Treasury.
When Mr. Callender went on the attack of the Federalist, i.e. Adams, Jefferson
knew of it and supported it. Callender, a Scottish immigrant, was arrested and jailed
by the Adams administration for his anti-Federalist pamphlet The Prospect Before Us
under the Alien and Sedition Acts. He was released the last day of Adams
administration and Jefferson pardoned him, but, Callender expected Jefferson to do
more. He wanted Jefferson to appoint him Postmaster of Richmond, Virginia and if
didn't, he threatened to write attacks on him. Jefferson washed his hands of this
unstable person & Callender went on the attack. The rest is history on that subject.

Quote:
Also, I once heard someone make the claim that Charles Carroll feared the Catholic Church would have to go back underground when Jefferson was elected. I've never found any evidence of this, but clearly Carroll found something in him to be very anti-Catholic. Any insight?
Yes. Mr. Carroll was a Federalist, which almost put him in direct opposition to
anything Jefferson & his anti-Federalist stance. Additionally, the anti-Catholic,
anti-religion mud splattering was nothing more than Federalist campaign propaganda
during the presidential election.

Quote:
Is it true that Martha Washington detested him? If so, why?
Yes, Mrs. Washington did not personally like Jefferson. Why? Simple.
She was supporting her husband, a Federalist. Jefferson and Washington on the
other hand corresponded a great deal about farming, planting and other agricultural
matters and were on decent cordial terms with each other. Mrs. Washington comes
off as a bit of a snooty-snob.

Quote:
I don't think it's true about Washington and the slave. .
I feel it is possible. If Jefferson's image can be dragged by its heal in the mud over
gossip with no hard, indisputable facts, then Washington's sacred image can as well.
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