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Old November 17th, 2012, 02:31 PM   #401

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Originally Posted by zincwarrior View Post
Yes forget them. Civil wars are bloody and the CSA saw total war towards the end. Start it at the beginning and the war could have ended more quickly.
I've appreciated your posts so far but you've lost me here. Part of(but not all) the reason I side with the Union is because there were faithful citizens held captive in the insurrection. Loads of them. They were being abused, conscripted, starved, intimidated, and murdered. The Union should consider it a duty to protect these people. I know collateral damage happens in war, but the government maliciously killing faithful citizens is unacceptable. It wouldn't push me to the southern cause but I would be thinking of a separate secession. Sherman wasn't a monster, he didn't wantonly murder citizens. He was above that and so should we be.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 04:36 PM   #402
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CONFEDERATE AMERICAN PRIDE: The 10 Causes of the War Between the States

This site lists 10 causes, slavery as #9. If you don't mind the sound effects, a Confederate point of view.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 04:51 PM   #403

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CONFEDERATE AMERICAN PRIDE: The 10 Causes of the War Between the States

This site lists 10 causes, slavery as #9. If you don't mind the sound effects, a Confederate point of view.
Ahem, a NEO-confederate point of view, you mean. The CONFEDERATE point of view was pretty well expressed in the Declaration of Causes of Secession, and in Jefferson Davis' first speech to the Provisional Confederate Congress, which I repeat for the umpteenth time:

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"Finally a great party was organized for the purpose of obtaining the administration of the Government, with the avowed object of using its power for the total exclusion of the slave States from all participation in the benefits of the public domain acquired by all the States in common, whether by conquest or purchase; of surrounding them entirely by States in which slavery should be prohibited; of thus rendering the property in slaves so insecure as to be comparatively worthless, and thereby annihilating in effect property worth thousands of millions of dollars. This party, thus organized, succeeded in the month of November last in the election of its candidate for the Presidency of the United States.

In the meantime, under the mild and genial climate of the Southern States and the increasing care and attention for the well-being and comfort of the laboring class, dictated alike by interest and humanity, the African slaves had augmented in number from about 600,000, at the date of the adoption of the constitutional compact, to upward of 4,000,000. In moral and social condition they had been elevated from brutal savages into docile, intelligent, and civilized agricultural laborers, and supplied not only with bodily comforts but with careful religious instruction. Under the supervision of a superior race their labor had been so directed as not only to allow a gradual and marked amelioration of their own condition, but to convert hundreds of thousands of square miles of wilderness into cultivated lands covered with a prosperous people; towns and cities had sprung into existence, and had rapidly increased in wealth and population under the social system of the South; the white population of the Southern slaveholding States had augmented form about 1,250,000 at the date of the adoption of the Constitution to more than 8,500,000 in 1860; and the productions of the South in cotton, rice, sugar, and tobacco, for the full development and continuance of which the labor of African slaves was and is indispensable, had swollen to an amount which formed nearly three-fourths of the exports of the whole United States and had become absolutely necessary to the wants of civilized man. With interests of such overwhelming magnitude imperiled, the people of the Southern States were driven by the conduct of the North to the adoption of some course of action to avert the danger with which they were openly menaced. With this view the Legislatures of the several States invited the people to select delegates to conventions to be held for the purpose of determining for themselves what measures were best adapted to meet so alarming a crisis in their history."
- Jefferson Davis, April 29, 1861

Source: Message of Jefferson Davis
But then what does Jefferson Davis know, compared to the commander of an SCV camp?

Last edited by Rongo; November 19th, 2012 at 05:14 PM. Reason: formatting
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Old November 19th, 2012, 04:57 PM   #404
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On a human level there were 4 causes of the war--New England Greed--New England Fanatics--New England Zealots--and New England Hypocrites
Hmmm and not one word about fire eaters or the miltant slavery supporters willing to use violence against any criticism of slavery...
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Old November 19th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #405

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From the link


Hmmm and not one word about fire eaters or the miltant slavery supporters willing to use violence against any criticism of slavery...
Will, we all know that those greedy New England fanatical, hypocritical zealots dressed up as Confederate soldiers and fired on Fort Sumter to start the war. Don't try to deny it.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #406

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Ahem, a NEO-confederate point of view, you mean.
And their third point is utterly ridiculous. The site makes it seem like 20-21st Century "militant" athiests were attacking 1st Century pius Christians.

Both North and South were Christian and firmly believed so. A book I've read, "Upon the Alter of the Nation: A Moral History of the Civil War" deals exclusively with these issues in how Northern and Southern churches viewed the war.

It also includes Lincoln's line, "both sides say they are fighting in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, but one must be WRONG. God can not be for and against the same thing at the same time."
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Old November 19th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #407

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Will, we all know that those greedy New England fanatical, hypocritical zealots dressed up as Confederate soldiers and fired on Fort Sumter to start the war. Don't try to deny it.
Actually I've heard it said that the Confederates showed great restraint in firing cannons at the fort, while Lincoln the firebrand deliberately provoked the war by sending some food to the garrison.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 05:09 PM   #408

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Actually I've heard it said that the Confederates showed great restraint in firing cannons at the fort, while Lincoln the firebrand deliberately provoked the war by sending some food to the garrison.
It was all part of his intricate plan to force them to fire on the fort, you see. After all, he clearly wanted war, despite not calling up any troops until after Davis did so.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:51 PM   #409

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Lets take a look at those Arkansas resolutions. What were their complaints?

We, the people of the State of Arkansas, in Convention assembled, in view of the unfortunate and distracted condition of our once happy and prosperous country, and of the alarming dissensions existing between the Northern and Southern sections thereof, and desiring that a fair and equitable adjustment of the same may be made, do hereby declare the following to be just causes of complaint on the part of the people of the Southern States against their brethren of the Northern, or non-slaveholding States:
1. The people of the Northern States have organized a political party, purely sectional in its character, the central and controlling idea of which is hostility to the institution of African slavery, as it exists in the Southern States; and that party has elected a President and Vice President of the United States, pledged to administer the Government upon principles inconsistent with the rights and subversive of the interests of the Southern States.

2. They have denied to the people of the Southern States the right to an equal participation in the benefits of the common Territories of the Union by refusing them the same protection to their slave property therein that is afforded to other property, and by declaring that no more slave States shall be admitted into the Union. They have, by their prominent men and lead*ers, declared the doctrine of the irrepressible conflict, or the assertion of the principle that the institution of slavery is incompatible with freedom, and that both cannot exist at once; that this continent must be wholly free or wholly slave. They have, in one or more instances, refused to surrender negro thieves to the constitutional demand of the constituted authority of a sove*reign State.

3. They have declared that Congress possesses, under the Constitution, and ought to exercise, the power to abolish slavery in the Territories, in the District of Columbia, and in the forts, arsenals and dock-yards of the United States, within the limits of the slaveholding States.

4. They have, in disregard of their constitutional obligations, obstructed the faithful execution of the fugitive slave laws by enactments of their State Legislatures.

5. They have denied the citizens of Southern States the right, of transit through non-slaveholding States with their slaves, and the right to hold them while temporarily sojourning therein.

6. They have degraded American citizens by placing them upon an equality with negroes at the ballot-box.


Sure sounds like it's about slavery to me.

Wow, it sure does.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:55 PM   #410

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"Mr. Lincoln was not only a great President, but a great man too great to be small in anything. In his company I was never in any way reminded of my humble origin, or of my unpopular color." - Frederick Douglass

"I assure you, that this inestimable memento of his Excellency will be retained in my possession while I live an object of sacred interest a token not merely of the kind consideration in which I have reason to know that the President was pleased to hold me personally, but as an indication of his humane interest in the welfare of my whole race." - Frederick Douglass
Couldn't get a better recommendation than that.
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