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Old November 20th, 2012, 12:09 PM   #421

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Originally Posted by tjadams View Post
And "Spoons" Butler's 'alleged' penchant for stealing the silverware
from homes he occupied didn't endure him to the bosom of many.
Click the image to open in full size.
So funny.
I thought this was a coffee mug, I just realized it's a chamber pot. Funny, but once you start flinging around urine and feces, not so funny. I have no problem with Butler's order.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 04:11 PM   #422

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How is this not treason? The Union was more merciful than I would have been.
"Floyd, the Secretary of War, scattered the army so that much of it could be captured when hostilities should commence, and distributed the cannon and small arms from Northern arsenals throughout the South so as to be on hand when treason wanted them." - Ulysses S Grant

Floyd certainly believed he would be tried for treason if captured by the Union. At Ft. Donelson, Floyd handed command to General Pillow, took the available transport, and fled.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 08:26 PM   #423
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"Floyd, the Secretary of War, scattered the army so that much of it could be captured when hostilities should commence, and distributed the cannon and small arms from Northern arsenals throughout the South so as to be on hand when treason wanted them." - Ulysses S Grant

Floyd certainly believed he would be tried for treason if captured by the Union. At Ft. Donelson, Floyd handed command to General Pillow, took the available transport, and fled.
Yeh, and he was an incompetent general, having no military experience. He was relieved of command after fleeing for fear of being captured and tried for treason.

He moved all sorts of equipment to the south as Secretary of War under the pretext that it was needed to protect against another insurrection after John Brown's raid. He also put southern officers in command of all southern bases and forts. So he did great service to the Confederacy.

He certainly could have been tried for treason. The Union could have tried a lot of people for treason, and Floyd would be a prime candidate.

The Civil War was pretty bad in terms of casualties, violence on both sides in the west, the Union army burning and destroying and so on, and the devastation of the south and its economy from multiple causes. However, other civil wars were worse in terms of executions and massacres and the like.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 03:24 AM   #424

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Originally Posted by Fiver View Post
"Floyd, the Secretary of War, scattered the army so that much of it could be captured when hostilities should commence, and distributed the cannon and small arms from Northern arsenals throughout the South so as to be on hand when treason wanted them." - Ulysses S Grant

Floyd certainly believed he would be tried for treason if captured by the Union. At Ft. Donelson, Floyd handed command to General Pillow, took the available transport, and fled.
GAH! Whenever I think I can't possibly dislike the confederacy any more!
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Old November 21st, 2012, 05:16 AM   #425
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Actually I've heard it said that the Confederates showed great restraint in firing cannons at the fort, while Lincoln the firebrand deliberately provoked the war by sending some food to the garrison.
Great restraint how?
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Old November 21st, 2012, 05:37 AM   #426
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Didn't the confederates make numerous attacks before Sumter? I read a quote from Sherman that they were even stealing mints.
Heres a list of some of these actions..
On January 2nd, prior to the Secession of Georgia, Forts Pulaski and
Jackson, commanding Savannah, and the Federal Arsenal at Augusta,

Georgia, with two 12 pound howitzers, two cannon, 22,000 muskets and
rifles, and ammunition in quantity, were seized by Rebel militia. About
the same date, although North Carolina had not seceded, her Governor
(Ellis) seized the Federal Arsenal at Fayetteville, Fort Macon, and
other fortifications in that State, "to preserve them" from mob-seizure.

January 4th, anticipating Secession, Alabama State troops seized Fort
Morgan, with 5,000 shot and shell, and Mount Vernon Arsenal at Mobile,
with 2,000 stand of arms, 150, 000 pounds of powder, some pieces of
cannon, and a large quantity of other munitions of war. The United
States Revenue cutter, "Lewis Cass," was also surrendered to Alabama.

On the 5th, the Federal steamer "Star of the West," with reinforcements
and supplies for Fort Sumter, left New York in the night--and Secretary
Jacob Thompson notified the South Carolina Rebels of the fact.

On the 9th, the "Star of the West" appeared off Charleston bar, and
while steaming toward Fort Sumter, was fired upon by Rebel batteries at
Fort Moultrie and Morris Island, and struck by a shot, whereupon she
returned to New York without accomplishing her mission. That day the
State of Mississippi seceded from the Union.

On the 10th, the Federal storeship "Texas," with Federal guns and
stores, was seized by Texans. On the same day Florida seceded.

On the 11th, Forts Jackson and St. Philip, commanding the mouth of the
Mississippi River, and Fort Pike, dominating Lake Pontchartrain, were
seized by Louisiana troops; also the Federal Arsenal at Baton Rouge,
with 50,000 small arms, 4 howitzers, 20 heavy pieces of ordnance, 2
batteries, 300 barrels of powder, and other stores. The State of
Alabama also seceded the same day.

On the 12th--Fort Marion, the coast surveying schooner "Dana," the
Arsenal at St. Augustine, and that on the Chattahoochee, with 500,000
musket cartridges, 300,000 rifle cartridges and 50,000 pounds of powder,
having previously been seized--Forts Barrancas and McRae, and the Navy
Yard at Pensacola, were taken by Rebel troops of Florida, Alabama and
Mississippi. On the same day, Colonel Hayne, of South Carolina, arrived
at Washington as Agent or Commissioner to the National Government from
Governor Pickens of that State.

On the 14th, the South Carolina Legislature resolved "that any attempt
by the Federal Government to reinforce Fort Sumter will be regarded as
an act of open hostility, and a Declaration of War."

On the 16th, Colonel Hayne, of South Carolina, developed his mission,
which was to demand of the President the surrender of Fort Sumter to the
South Carolina authorities--a demand that had already been made upon,
and refused by, Major Anderson.

The correspondence concerning this demand, between Colonel Hayne and ten
Southern United States Senators;--[Senators Wigfall, Hemphill, Yulee,
Mallory, Jeff. Davis, C. C. Clay, Fitzgerald, Iverson, Slidell, and
Benjamin.]--the reply of the President, by Secretary Holt, to those
Senators; Governor Pickens's review of the same; and the final demand;
consumed the balance of the month of January; and ended, February 6th,
in a further reply, through the Secretary of War, from the President,
asserting the title of the United States to that Fort, and declining the
demand, as "he has no Constitutional power to cede or surrender it."
Secretary Holt's letter concluded by saying: "If, with all the
multiplied proofs which exist of the President's anxiety for Peace, and
of the earnestness with which he has pursued it, the authorities of that
State shall assault Fort Sumter, and peril the lives of the handful of
brave and loyal men shut up within its walls, and thus plunge our Common
Country into the horrors of Civil War, then upon them and those they
represent, must rest the responsibility."

But to return from this momentary diversion: On the 18th of January,
Georgia seceded; and on the 20th, the Federal Fort at Ship Island,
Mississippi, and the United States Hospital on the Mississippi River
were seized by Mississippi troops.

On the 26th, Louisiana seceded. On the 28th, Louisiana troops seized
all the quartermaster's and commissary stores held by Federal officials;
and the United States Revenue cutter "McClelland" surrendered to the
Rebels.

On February 1st, the Louisiana Rebels seized the National Mint and
Custom House at New Orleans, with $599,303 in gold and silver. On the
same day the State of Texas seceded.

On February 8th, the National Arsenal at Little Rock, Arkansas, with
9,000 small arms, 40 cannon, and quantities of ammunition, was seized;
and the same day the Governor of Georgia ordered the National Collector
of the Port of Savannah to retain all collections and make no further
payments to the United States Government.*

But to return from this momentary diversion: On the 18th of January,
Georgia seceded; and on the 20th, the Federal Fort at Ship Island,
Mississippi, and the United States Hospital on the Mississippi River
were seized by Mississippi troops.

On the 26th, Louisiana seceded. On the 28th, Louisiana troops seized
all the quartermaster's and commissary stores held by Federal officials;
and the United States Revenue cutter "McClelland" surrendered to the
Rebels.

On February 1st, the Louisiana Rebels seized the National Mint and
Custom House at New Orleans, with $599,303 in gold and silver. On the
same day the State of Texas seceded.

On February 8th, the National Arsenal at Little Rock, Arkansas, with
9,000 small arms, 40 cannon, and quantities of ammunition, was seized;
and the same day the Governor of Georgia ordered the National Collector
of the Port of Savannah to retain all collections and make no further
payments to the United States Government.*


On February 20th, Forts Chadbourne and Belknap were seized by the Texan
Rebels; and on the 22nd, the Federal General Twiggs basely surrendered
to them all the fortifications under his control, his little Army, and
all the Government stores in his possession--comprising $55,000 in
specie, 35,000 stand of arms, 26 pieces of mounted artillery, 44
dismounted guns, and ammunition, horses, wagons, forage, etc., valued at
nearly $2,000,000.

On the 2nd of March, the Texan Rebels seized the United States Revenue
cutter "Dodge" at Galveston; and on the 6th, Fort Brown was surrendered
to them.

Thus, with surrender after surrender, and seizure after
seizure, of its revenue vessels and fortifications and troops and arms
and munitions of war in the Southern States--with Fort Sumter invested
and at the mercy of any attack, and Fortress Monroe alone of all the
National strongholds yet safe--with State after State seceding--what
wonder that, while these events gave all encouragement to the Southern
Rebels, the Patriots of the North stood aghast at the appalling
spectacle of a crumbling and dissolving Union!

http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Great-C...-Part-2-1.html
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Old November 21st, 2012, 09:37 AM   #427

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Originally Posted by wilber6150 View Post
Great restraint how?
He was being sarcastic.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 03:42 PM   #428

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Originally Posted by Viperlord View Post
He was being sarcastic.
He was indeed.

There is a current, active member here who has offered this very position: That the South just wanted to peacefully go but Lincoln forced them to violence.

Clearly ridiculous, as even a cursory examination of the facts shows.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 05:37 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by botully View Post
He was indeed.

There is a current, active member here who has offered this very position: That the South just wanted to peacefully go but Lincoln forced them to violence.

Clearly ridiculous, as even a cursory examination of the facts shows.
I am not strongly for either side, but clearly this is true. The Confederacy would have preferred to leave to Union peacefully. The Confederacy did take over military and other US installations in the south. The US government invaded the south. There would have been no war if the US accepted secession.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 05:52 PM   #430

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Originally Posted by betgo View Post
The Confederacy would have preferred to leave to Union peacefully. .
Clearly this was not the case, since that's not how it happened, by the Confederacy's own choice. They fired on Fort Sumter and called up an army before the Union did any such thing. The Confederacy was committed to adding Kentucky and Missouri to their territory by force, though the majority in those states rejected secession.
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