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Old November 12th, 2012, 03:11 AM   #111

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Probably the most shallow OP I've ever seen on here, and that's saying something. Be better off watching 'the Searchers' and 'Last of the Mohicans' before getting into any actual history reading!! :-)
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Old November 12th, 2012, 04:46 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Rongo View Post
And the same can be said of the European/Americans. The VAST majority (80% or more) of Native Americans were wiped out by disease. There are few, if any, examples of entire tribes being wiped out by the European/Americans. Instead there are numerous examples of small-scale attacks (some of them which were certainly morally reprehensible) on villages and settlements. But the Native Americans were no different. We've already seen the Crow Creek example, but here's some more:



.....


......


The Native Americans were wiped out by disease, warfare among themselves, and warfare with the white settlers. And although the deaths at the hands of the whites made up only a small fraction of their total deaths, the white man gets blamed for them all.
if I'm not mistaken, also the Eries were 'wiped out' by the Iroquois...ty for replies
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Old November 12th, 2012, 04:55 AM   #113
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this is exactly my original point


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Originally Posted by Nemotheelvenpanda View Post
Don't put words in my mouth. I know that the native americans did heinous acts, but the key difference is that white people tried to commit not only basic genocide, but cultural genocide too. Entire generations of children were stolen from their reservations and "americanized"against their will, which is still happening in some parts of the country today. The BS native americans have to deal with is still going on, that's the key distinction.
is there a difference?? both sides made war, mudered, wiped out tribes,etc...it is both evil and 'wrong'......when you wipe out a tribe, as the Iroquois did, you wipe out [[murder]]everything about that tribe, including their culture and history....
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Old November 12th, 2012, 05:54 AM   #114

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Prior to European arrival the native americans, much like all other people in all other parts of the world were as virtuous and as flawed as humans tend to be. They undoubtedly did good things, they undoubtedly did very bad things and could be just as cruel and vile as any other human could, because they were humans. Even after European contact this would have been the case, exacerbated by those cultural conflicts which brought them into greater relief and attention. To cast them as anything else, some sort of innocent child of nature or angelic beings would be ludicrous. They were human and just as fallible.

The problem is I imagine, especially with the expansion of the US in the 19th century and onwards, that there is a greater volume of source material, and probably better detailed source material, which displays white's activities in a distinctly poor light. Where as there is I shouldnt wonder, rather minimal evidence to show the attrocities committed by native americans prior to european contact. Kind of skews the pciture on the subject. Having got a pretty raw deal over the centuries it is also very easy to play the victim and exploit notions of sympathy. In many cases, quite justifiably so, Wounded Knee comes to mind.

Yet to cast it all in some black and white, oppressor and blameless victim is fallacious. It is ahistorical.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 06:46 AM   #115

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Because the whites won and enslaved, killed-off, dislocated, and disfranchised entire groups of people, breaking promises and treaties along away, some with nations that were once the government's allies. Today, native americans are among the worst off in the USA in terms of health and poverty, with many of their traditional languages and customs slowly dying out.

Now, couldn't have been turned around? Certainly. However, the humanitarian violations that whites imposed on the natives is very concrete and still very unresolved.
the indians didn't do the very same things to each other? And the Indians were pretty decent at breaking treaties themselves.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 07:10 AM   #116

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Amazing as it may sound, far as I can tell no human population has ever been Angels, either in a literal or a metaphorical way.

Guess that's an excellent rationale for universal conquest, huh?

Actually Pope Gregory the Great saw some Britons once and called them Angels.

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Non Angli, sed angeli – "They are not Angles, but angels". Aphorism, summarizing words reported to have been spoken by Gregory when he first encountered pale-skinned English boys at a slave market, sparking his dispatch of St. Augustine of Canterbury to England to convert the English, according to Bede.[71] He said: "Well named, for they have angelic faces and ought to be co-heirs with the angels in heaven."[72] Discovering that their province was Deira, he went on to add that they would be rescued de ira, "from the wrath", and that their king was named Aella, Alleluia, he said.[73]
He was right too, of course.


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Old November 12th, 2012, 07:16 AM   #117

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Apparently the Floridian Indian women had unique forms of torture, nothing changes I imagine.

Some of the early white settlers were also tortured to death by the Indians.

Crawford_expedition Crawford_expedition


Quote:
During the retreat, Crawford and an unknown number of his men were captured. The Indians executed many of these captives in retaliation for the Gnadenhutten massacre that occurred earlier in the year, in which about 100 peaceful Indians were murdered by Pennsylvanian militiamen. Crawford's execution was particularly brutal: he was tortured for at least two hours before being burned at the stake.
[/quote]Fates of the captives

While Williamson and Rose were retreating with the main body of men, Crawford, Knight, and four other stragglers were traveling south along the Sandusky River in present-day Crawford County, Ohio. On June 7, they came upon a party of Delawares about 28 miles (45 km) east of the battlefield. Knight raised his gun, but Crawford told him not to fire. Crawford and Knight knew some of these Delawares, who were a part of band led by a war chief named Wingenund. Crawford and Knight were taken prisoner, but the other four Americans escaped. Two of them were later tracked down, killed, and scalped.[83]
Captives taken by American Indians during the American Revolution might be ransomed by the British in Detroit, adopted into the tribe, enslaved, or simply killed.[84] However, after the Gnadenhütten massacre, the Ohio Indians had resolved to kill all American prisoners who fell into their hands.[85] The number of Americans executed after the Sandusky expedition is unknown, since their fate was usually recorded only if one of the prisoners survived to tell.
While some were executed quickly, others were tortured before being killed. The public torture of prisoners was a traditional ritual in many tribes of the Eastern Woodlands.[86] Captives might have to endure excruciating torture for hours and even days.[87] The British Indian Department used its influence to discourage the killing and torturing of prisoners, with some success, but in 1782 the Indians revived the practice of ritual torture in order to exact revenge for the slaughter at Gnadenhütten.[88][/quote]
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Old November 12th, 2012, 07:18 AM   #118
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the native Americans stole, murdered, and raped just like the whites...how come I only hear about how the whites were evil??
It's like Palestine now: racist colonisation by your opponents justifies pretty well anything.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 07:20 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
Actually Pope Gregory the Great saw some Britons once and called them Angels.



He was right too, of course.


Pope Gregory I - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not Britons, man - they are, as is well known, devils, fit for nothing but to be driven about in Germanic taxis!
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Old November 12th, 2012, 07:49 AM   #120

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Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
Apparently the Floridian Indian women had unique forms of torture, nothing changes I imagine.

Some of the early white settlers were also tortured to death by the Indians.

Crawford expedition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fates of the captives

While Williamson and Rose were retreating with the main body of men, Crawford, Knight, and four other stragglers were traveling south along the Sandusky River in present-day Crawford County, Ohio. On June 7, they came upon a party of Delawares about 28 miles (45 km) east of the battlefield. Knight raised his gun, but Crawford told him not to fire. Crawford and Knight knew some of these Delawares, who were a part of band led by a war chief named Wingenund. Crawford and Knight were taken prisoner, but the other four Americans escaped. Two of them were later tracked down, killed, and scalped.[83]
Captives taken by American Indians during the American Revolution might be ransomed by the British in Detroit, adopted into the tribe, enslaved, or simply killed.[84] However, after the Gnadenhütten massacre, the Ohio Indians had resolved to kill all American prisoners who fell into their hands.[85] The number of Americans executed after the Sandusky expedition is unknown, since their fate was usually recorded only if one of the prisoners survived to tell.
While some were executed quickly, others were tortured before being killed. The public torture of prisoners was a traditional ritual in many tribes of the Eastern Woodlands.[86] Captives might have to endure excruciating torture for hours and even days.[87] The British Indian Department used its influence to discourage the killing and torturing of prisoners, with some success, but in 1782 the Indians revived the practice of ritual torture in order to exact revenge for the slaughter at Gnadenhütten.[88]
Exactly. And does anyone believe this kind of thing wouldn't have a profound effect on the people who witnessed it or heard about it? Not to justify the horrible atrocities the Europeans and Americans committed on the Indians, but to say the Indians as a whole were innocent victims is naive.
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