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Old November 9th, 2012, 11:59 AM   #31

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Incorrect; in addition to the dire circumstances on the reservations (where they were forced to live, and which often times don't have running water) there are many Indians living, today, who endured forced sterilization or the horrible conditions of Indian schools (which were specifically designed to rob Natives of their cultures).

To say that prejudice against Indians doesn't live on is patently false; they're this country's dirty little secret, and there are many who *still* feel it would be easier to sweep them under the rug and see them disappear entirely than acknowledge and rectify the wrongs that have been - and continue to be - committed against them.

Also, to the OP, of course pre-colonial indigenous people weren't "angels", and the things you mentioned will exist in every group of people, to some degree. No one is perfect. However, that didn't give the colonists the right to invade these continents and commit genocide against them, simply because they didn't adhere to their religion or their culture.

Regardless, this isn't really a concern for anyone except those interested in preserving *true*, unbiased, non-revisionist history (as opposed to the pro-colonial, pro-early-American propaganda that we've heard for years). I think modern Indians are primarily concerned with the discrimination and inequality they continue to face in their own native land...
Good post.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 11:59 AM   #32

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Because the whites were worse than the natives and treated them like something subhuman. The natives committed atrocities to be sure, both against rival tribes and against whites, but the European immigrants and their descendents far exceeded them in scale.

Besides, whenever a war erupted with the natives where a broken treaty was involved, it was usually the whites violating the terms of the treaty.

The whites also frequently betrayed their own native allies, shipping off native scouts that had fought for the US Army to the same reservations.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 12:02 PM   #33

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It's hard to believe that so many historumites pretend to not understand the history.



Mike is right about that. Atrocities are plenty from both sides of the American expansion. The American Indians faired much worse in the end but we can't ignore much of history out of some back looking sense of guilt.
Like what for example should we not ignore?
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Old November 9th, 2012, 12:06 PM   #34

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Genocide wasn't exactly common among Native-Americans. Tribal warfare could get quite intense, but even among the most warlike of the tribes, the Iroquois, wiping out rival tribes to the last man, woman, and child was pretty much unheard of and considered particularly vicious. They preferred to adopt defeated enemies as members of their own tribe. Even plenty of whites were actually taken in by various tribes over the years, it was relatively common during the early days of settlement when many colonists would voluntarily be taken by the natives because life in the colonies could be brutal, harsh, and oppressive. Granted, by 21st century standards assimilation isn't ideal, but hey, it's not genocide. Whether the whites committed genocide as a matter of general policy is debated and typically not considered true, but it did happen on a case-to-case basis. The civilizations of Europe and the United States didn't have an overarching goal that lasted through regimes and administrations demanding all their people kill everyone not of their kind, but many leaders and independent initiatives did go out to purposefully wipe out entire peoples. Even Diego de Landa, who himself was a bit of a monster, recalls with some horror Spanish depopulation campaigns in provinces that didn't bow down quickly enough. Another reason people typically consider the colonists to be meaner than the natives was that the natives didn't do horrible things on a basis of "these people look different, sound funny, and don't practice my religion!". And yes, the colonists murdered, raped, and tortured so it's not like the Indians are unique in that regard.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 12:09 PM   #35

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Indeed not. But what did give them the "right" to "invade" this continent is that there was overcrowding in Europe and plenty of wide open space here (at least in North America). There were also no recognized international boundaries or land deeds here.

And "genocide" is a SYSTEMATIC and DELIBERATE act. I can't speak for Central and South America, but at least in North America there is no evidence of a deliberate, systematic attempt to wipe out the native population.
Excellent point on genocide. It is a term advocates love to throw around for effect. I feel the term is not correctly applied when discussing the Indian wars of North America.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 12:13 PM   #36

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Originally Posted by Hresvelgr View Post
Genocide wasn't exactly common among Native-Americans. Tribal warfare could get quite intense, but even among the most warlike of the tribes, the Iroquois, wiping out rival tribes to the last man, woman, and child was pretty much unheard of and considered particularly vicious. They preferred to adopt defeated enemies as members of their own tribe. Even plenty of whites were actually taken in by various tribes over the years, it was relatively common during the early days of settlement when many colonists would voluntarily be taken by the natives because life in the colonies could be brutal, harsh, and oppressive. Granted, by 21st century standards assimilation isn't ideal, but hey, it's not genocide. Whether the whites committed genocide as a matter of general policy is debated and typically not considered true, but it did happen on a case-to-case basis. The civilizations of Europe and the United States didn't have an overarching goal that lasted through regimes and administrations demanding all their people kill everyone not of their kind, but many leaders and independent initiatives did go out to purposefully wipe out entire peoples. Even Diego de Landa, who himself was a bit of a monster, recalls with some horror Spanish depopulation campaigns in provinces that didn't bow down quickly enough. Another reason people typically consider the colonists to be meaner than the natives was that the natives didn't do horrible things on a basis of "these people look different, sound funny, and don't practice my religion!". And yes, the colonists murdered, raped, and tortured so it's not like the Indians are unique in that regard.
Wondering if you might provide a few of those case by case examples of genocide by the English or the colonists or the Americans. I can come up with some examples of pretty bad stuff but not getting to genocide.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 12:20 PM   #37

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Wondering if you might provide a few of those case by case examples of genocide by the English or the colonists or the Americans. I can come up with some examples of pretty bad stuff but not getting to genocide.
The Beothuk were eventually totally wiped out by colonists. I already mentioned depopulation campaigns meant to kill just about everyone possible in certain provinces of the Yucatan. Efforts were made against other tribes but weren't as thorough. The Trail of Tears might technically count as ethnic cleansing, but that's not much better if at all and that happened to almost every tribe in the USA.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 12:20 PM   #38

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In Brazil there is a politic of mass killings and slaving a example even the jesuits missions was attacked to kill the natives
the only chance of surviving was fighting back with the same violence and with the same our more cruelty.
South and Central America definitely had a very different set of circumstances from the present-day US and Canada. That's one of the problems I see with this thread. It was started with no fact, focus or direction - just emotion. I pretty much see it degrading into a pointless brawl.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 12:24 PM   #39

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Originally Posted by Nemotheelvenpanda View Post
Because the whites won and enslaved, killed-off, dislocated, and disfranchised entire groups of people, breaking promises and treaties along away, some with nations that were once the government's allies. Today, native americans are among the worst off in the USA in terms of health and poverty, with many of their traditional languages and customs slowly dying out.

Now, couldn't have been turned around? Certainly. However, the humanitarian violations that whites imposed on the natives is very concrete and still very unresolved.
Very true on all accounts.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 12:29 PM   #40

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Excellent point on genocide. It is a term advocates love to throw around for effect. I feel the term is not correctly applied when discussing the Indian wars of North America.
Perhaps morally reprehensible atrocities would be more accurate.

Wounded_Knee_Massacre Wounded_Knee_Massacre

The vast majority killed were women and children.
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