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Old November 23rd, 2012, 06:09 PM   #31
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First, I don't think you really understand the difference between collectivism and communism. As Gudenrath pointed out, you are comparing a way of life to a political system. I would like for you to explain your views on both. Maybe that will help connect your OP a little better than what it is.


Second, the United States didn't reject any form of government other than a monarchy as far as I remember. Again, I don't think you quite understand the difference between collectivism and communism. I think once you've explained yourself more (about the differences that is) it will be a lot easier to read where you are coming from.

As to the rest of your posts, it extremely obvious that you are having a very difficult time supporting your conclusions because the content of your original post is an idea that has no historical backing. Outside of one article, what else do we have on this very unique subject? It might be a good idea to start supporting your opinions with something more concrete.
Pilgrims rejecting communism gave us Thanksgiving

Thanksgiving Story: Why There Are No Communist Pilgrims

Thanksgiving, The Pilgrims And Their Failed Experiment With Communism

Communism, Capitalism and the Third Thanksgiving | PBS NewsHour

Creation Worldview Ministries: Pilgrims and Their Experiment with Communism

Christian History - A Day of Thanksgiving - 1623

Thanksgiving Day

How Did the Pilgrims Beat ‘Communism’ With the Free Market? - AskHeritage

As for Hayek's position that socialism or communism or collectivism are deeply rooted in history, and rejected, then perhaps we disagree on that. I argue that communism, socialism, etc. are all primitive ideas that have been thought of many times throughout history. They have always been rejected eventually. I think the problem I encounter on this thread is that there are people today who embrace the very theory that Hayek rejected. Perhaps this theory causes pain for some of the participants.

Last edited by Virgil; November 23rd, 2012 at 06:17 PM.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 07:06 PM   #32

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Pilgrims rejecting communism gave us Thanksgiving

Thanksgiving Story: Why There Are No Communist Pilgrims

Thanksgiving, The Pilgrims And Their Failed Experiment With Communism

Communism, Capitalism and the Third Thanksgiving | PBS NewsHour

Creation Worldview Ministries: Pilgrims and Their Experiment with Communism

Christian History - A Day of Thanksgiving - 1623

Thanksgiving Day

How Did the Pilgrims Beat ‘Communism’ With the Free Market? - AskHeritage

As for Hayek's position that socialism or communism or collectivism are deeply rooted in history, and rejected, then perhaps we disagree on that. I argue that communism, socialism, etc. are all primitive ideas that have been thought of many times throughout history. They have always been rejected eventually. I think the problem I encounter on this thread is that there are people today who embrace the very theory that Hayek rejected. Perhaps this theory causes pain for some of the participants.

I still don't get what you are trying to say here. I simply asked for a definition from you on collectivism and communism. I also asked for a comparison of the two within a historical context. You have failed to do so. I follow that you think they come from the same mold...but you haven't demonstrated how. These links aren't from reliable historical people within the field. Frankly, these sources are agenda driven with little to no objective balance to them. Many of them are news sources, not historical research.

Are there historians within the field that back this theory?
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 07:28 PM   #33
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I still don't get what you are trying to say here. I simply asked for a definition from you on collectivism and communism. I also asked for a comparison of the two within a historical context. You have failed to do so. I follow that you think they come from the same mold...but you haven't demonstrated how. These links aren't from reliable historical people within the field. Frankly, these sources are agenda driven with little to no objective balance to them. Many of them are news sources, not historical research.

Are there historians within the field that back this theory?
Yes, Hayek would be one. I would define collectivism as Stalinism. That is not accurate either, since all forms of socialism have horrible histories of mayhem, and very little good to show for anything. Do you realize that during the 20th century, no attempt was made to rationalize socialism it seems. It was just accepted, along with its warts, much as you ask me to accept it today. I would argue an alternate history, one not dependent on a few people who do not want to hear what I have to say.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 07:42 PM   #34

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Yes, Hayek would be one. I would define collectivism as Stalinism. That is not accurate either, since all forms of socialism have horrible histories of mayhem, and very little good to show for anything. Do you realize that during the 20th century, no attempt was made to rationalize socialism it seems. It was just accepted, along with its warts, much as you ask me to accept it today. I would argue an alternate history, one not dependent on a few people who do not want to hear what I have to say.
What does the bolded and underlined part have to do with the 17th century and Thanksgiving? The task was not a difficult one...though I suppose it was difficult given the nature of the theory and its very difficult connection to Thanksgiving.

Advice for you my friend, politics is best left to partisan lines. Making such connections based on personal political affiliation, makes a terrible historical argument. As you can see, the argument/theory is shown for what it is if it doesn't have the proper backing. Just show us the facts my friend. Nothing more.

By the way, I have no problem hearing what you have to say. Every theory deserves its own examination and scrutiny in due time. Simply keep an objective, open mind...it wasn't difficult to figure out where your affiliation lies.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:38 PM   #35
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What does the bolded and underlined part have to do with the 17th century and Thanksgiving? The task was not a difficult one...though I suppose it was difficult given the nature of the theory and its very difficult connection to Thanksgiving.

Advice for you my friend, politics is best left to partisan lines. Making such connections based on personal political affiliation, makes a terrible historical argument. As you can see, the argument/theory is shown for what it is if it doesn't have the proper backing. Just show us the facts my friend. Nothing more.

By the way, I have no problem hearing what you have to say. Every theory deserves its own examination and scrutiny in due time. Simply keep an objective, open mind...it wasn't difficult to figure out where your affiliation lies.
What is the rule? Do all OPs have to be completely defined from the first word, with no flexibility? I guess you got me there. I guess you, like the others achieved that amazing goal in forum history, you challenged someone on the substance of the OP, then you completely ignored every response. It became a very big deal with you because of the election? That I am still searching for. I only know that I was humiliated for putting forth an idea that is very common in the US. Good for you, I applaud your ability to prove nothing, or even argue nothing, while humiliating someone. Bravo.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:53 PM   #36

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What is the rule? Do all OPs have to be completely defined from the first word, with no flexibility? I guess you got me there. I guess you, like the others achieved that amazing goal in forum history, you challenged someone on the substance of the OP, then you completely ignored every response. It became a very big deal with you because of the election? That I am still searching for. I only know that I was humiliated for putting forth an idea that is very common in the US. Good for you, I applaud your ability to prove nothing, or even argue nothing, while humiliating someone. Bravo.
But you still haven't explained your reasoning. Its difficult to respond when the premise of the theory is flawed. What Ive done is make an already weak theory weaker. All this post demonstrates is your unwillingness to put forth a solid arguement...or should I say a historical purpose for this thread. When called out on it, you should have made an attempt to defend your position.

Since you refuse to defend your arguement, I assume there is no reason for this to be open any further.

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