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Old November 23rd, 2012, 04:53 AM   #21

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OP seems firstly to be trying to apply later moral values retrospectively (quite usual on here), and also ignoring the fact that among the causes of the war would be the south not being wanted to be dictated to, and not being allowed independence to do as they wish!

Slavery is immoral and now illegal, but you can become obsessed with it, above all else.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:06 AM   #22
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The slave lords WERE the money power in 1860. The estimated value of slave property in 1860 was 3 BILLION dollars. The total U.S. government budget in 1860 was 78 MILLION dollars.
The 'Money Power' was a term for the Northern financial-industrial interest that was the primary opponent of the 'plain republicans' of the North and the Democratic slave-owners of the South in the early antebellum years. It was used as a contrasting term for the 'Slave Power', which did represent the slave lords of the South.

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Old November 23rd, 2012, 01:45 PM   #23

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Get your hand out of the treasury of virtue and get off your damned high horse.
Perhaps you should learn what the term "Treasury of Virtue" means before using it as an attack on other posters.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 02:13 PM   #24

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How do you go back in time to a certain era, lasting a few years or a few decades, and decide who in a society should be vilified, or blamed for all of the failings of a nation. I find that it is pretty easy to scapegoat the South on the issue of slavery, because the North fought a war to end slavery. But did they really? Are they absolved of their entire history? Does anyone believe that slavery could have existed without the explicit participation of the majority of the country, which was the North?
I hear ya' Virg. This is why i hate morality speeches mixing with the historical politics of a bygone era. However, as often as browbeaters get it wrong, the Northern society of the time, aside from abolitionists, didn't fight to end slavery, they fought to keep the union together. I'm pretty sure if Lincoln made a call for 75,000 volunteers to end slavery, hardly anyone in the North would have signed up. Instead, he had made a call for volunteers to protect and restore the union.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 02:44 PM   #25

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Originally Posted by johnincornwall View Post
OP seems firstly to be trying to apply later moral values retrospectively (quite usual on here), and also ignoring the fact that among the causes of the war would be the south not being wanted to be dictated to, and not being allowed independence to do as they wish!
However you dress it up, the central point was the fact that it was the issue of slavery that the South didn't want to be dictated to about.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 02:51 PM   #26

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However you dress it up, the central point was the fact that it was the issue of slavery that the South didn't want to be dictated to about.
And felt no anguish as they happily dictated to the Northern states on the same issue.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 02:54 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Panthera tigris altaica View Post
I hear ya' Virg. This is why i hate morality speeches mixing with the historical politics of a bygone era. However, as often as browbeaters get it wrong, the Northern society of the time, aside from abolitionists, didn't fight to end slavery, they fought to keep the union together. I'm pretty sure if Lincoln made a call for 75,000 volunteers to end slavery, hardly anyone in the North would have signed up. Instead, he had made a call for volunteers to protect and restore the union.
I know the posters on Historum do not believe that the South was completely to blame for slavery (that I know of ). Am I wrong to point out that in so many ways the blame does come from American culture? When a movie is made about Mississippi, I can guess what it is about. They do not like to make movies that would make Mississippi look modern and well mannered, even though that is what Mississippi is. They in Hollywood or they in the media would much rather harp on slavery, Jim Crow, racism by white southerners, etc. Perhaps I am too sensitive, but I believe that a certain malevolence accompanies portrayals of southerners in America.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 03:24 PM   #28

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I know the posters on Historum do not believe that the South was completely to blame for slavery (that I know of ). Am I wrong to point out that in so many ways the blame does come from American culture? When a movie is made about Mississippi, I can guess what it is about. They do not like to make movies that would make Mississippi look modern and well mannered, even though that is what Mississippi is. They in Hollywood or they in the media would much rather harp on slavery, Jim Crow, racism by white southerners, etc. Perhaps I am too sensitive, but I believe that a certain malevolence accompanies portrayals of southerners in America.
So what is the purpose of this thread? Point out a fact that you acknowledge Historum members understand, because you perceive "malevolence" from Hollywood?
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 03:34 PM   #29
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So what is the purpose of this thread? Point out a fact that you acknowledge Historum members understand, because you perceive "malevolence" from Hollywood?
I thought that the purpose on Historum was to discuss history. I find it refreshing to converse with people who actually care about history. I have thought many times the same thing so many come to realize, if you discuss topics that are not interesting to you, Historum will become stale to you. Earlier this week I thought very much about making a concerted effort to leave Historum completely. Then I thought about what makes it great. It is not only the excellent people on this site, it is also very important to discuss topics that interest us.

Either start a topic that is interesting to you, or stop complaining about mine.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 03:43 PM   #30
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However you dress it up, the central point was the fact that it was the issue of slavery that the South didn't want to be dictated to about.
I have made the same argument for many years to friends of mine who believe that the war was over states' rights. I have argued that if the right in question was slavery, then the war was about slavery.
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