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Old November 26th, 2012, 07:51 PM   #31

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Originally Posted by tjadams View Post
Good write up Recusant and that is my point as well. Have proof and debates can springboard
from there.
Pot smokers want so badly to legitimize what they do by locking arms with anything
that people revere and who bigger than the Founders? By taking a historical fact of hemp grown
for ropes, paper etc, pot smokers want badly to stand on the shoulders of the FF and yell,
"See, they did it and it has to be ok to do it."
I don't think your point is the same as Recusant's...in fact, your point is exactly what I'm talking about in my previous post. You should know better than to allow your own personal biases to get in the way of methodology. Regardless of how you feel on the issue, you really need to take a step back and take a look at the argument again...this time, without the preconceived notions that you have.

I guess the big question I have is this...is it possible, knowing they used hemp for other reasons, that they could have smoked the stuff. Regardless of evidence...is it possible?
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Old November 26th, 2012, 07:57 PM   #32

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....The point of providing the link was to spark discussion (which it has). We have a couple of individuals who claim that those Founding Fathers wouldn't have done such a thing. The problem with that train of thought is that there's no evidence to support that they didn't. In fact, there's no real concrete evidence either way.

My point...to declare that there isn't a possibility that they didn't smoke it is absurd because its not good methodology. We cannot confirm or deny either way. That is why we need to go to the evidence and draw our own conclusions.
It just wasn't important at the time, so nobody bothered to document it. Property, slaves, valuables, etc, were important and extensively documented. Pot was a utilitarian weed with peripheral benefits that grows rapaciously almost anywhere (unlike tobacco or cotton or wheat, more like Kudzu) and nobody was enforcing a law against it so it's not surprising that little is written.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 08:00 PM   #33

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It just wasn't important at the time, so nobody bothered to document it. Property, slaves, valuables, etc, were important and extensively documented. Pot was a utilitarian weed with peripheral benefits that grows rapaciously almost anywhere (unlike tobacco or cotton or wheat, more like Kudzu) and nobody was enforcing a law against it so it's not surprising that little is written.
Exactly right. I think you have made your way to the heart of the issue in terms of acquiring sources. It's simply too difficult to tell either way because of this.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 09:16 PM   #34

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Is there anything to suggest that hemp routinely smoked in colonial America? What sort of stigma if any would be attached to such a practice? If it was so routine of a vice that no one bothered to mention it, why are there several mentions in various sources of the founding fathers drinking copious amounts of alcohol and yet not one mention of them lighting up a hemp pipe? I mention this last tidbit because this period in American history was really really 'wet'.

I'm having a hard time crossing the line of 'highly unlikely' here. But with your help I can do it
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Old November 27th, 2012, 06:34 PM   #35
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Washington drank a mixture of opium and morphine for his toothaches. Now, the question is whether or not they smoked weed. Hmm. Let's take a wild guess.
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Old November 27th, 2012, 06:51 PM   #36

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Is there anything to suggest that hemp routinely smoked in colonial America? What sort of stigma if any would be attached to such a practice? If it was so routine of a vice that no one bothered to mention it, why are there several mentions in various sources of the founding fathers drinking copious amounts of alcohol and yet not one mention of them lighting up a hemp pipe? I mention this last tidbit because this period in American history was really really 'wet'.

I'm having a hard time crossing the line of 'highly unlikely' here. But with your help I can do it
I've heard stories about Washington and Jefferson enjoying weed, but nothing I could cite. It seems as though it was just something that was done sometimes, not a big deal but also not illegal or very controversial. One of the things that is really shocking is when you think about the distrust people had of water back then. Even kids lived off hard cider, beer, whatever other fermented beverage was available as well as soups and stews, but rarely plain water. By our standards, most people were somewhat pickled all the time, so there was not the same level of disapproval of "controlled" degrees of intoxication back then. Being a dysfunctional "drunkard" was not OK, but it seems to be a matter of degree and bad behavior, teetotalers being quite rare. In that context, where tobacco was also ubiquitous, pot just seems to fade into the background.
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Old November 27th, 2012, 07:05 PM   #37

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Washington drank a mixture of opium and morphine for his toothaches. Now, the question is whether or not they smoked weed. Hmm. Let's take a wild guess.
I don't know whether this claim is true either way, but to be fair opiates were considered medicine for years before they were considered an illegal drug.

If hemp were smoked, I doubt it would have been for perceived medicinal qualities.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 08:15 AM   #38

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Opiates are still considered medicine. It's in almost all pain killers that you need a prescription for. We as Americans need to face a hard reality, plants that have medicinal properties or that give euphoric feelings or make you hallucinate are used for a reason, they are fun to use and they do provide some medical uses. The stigmas attached to most drugs are there for good reason, they are addictive and destructive. In the case of marihuana, the stigma comes on purpose by our own government for selfish reasons. They purposely made it the "evil" drug it is today. I think more and more people are starting to realize that and America is losing the "war on drugs", which is actually a war on liberty and a war on its own people and separately, a war on organized crime. This is why we see states like California and Colorado assert their sovereignty(as they should) against federal laws and federal encroachment. People are waking up to the real history of marihuana use which really begins in the late 19-early 20th century, not with the founding fathers.

I don't know if the founding fathers smoked it or not, something tells me that it's unlikely that they never tried it at least once, but there's no evidence either way. I think it would be better to focus on the true history of marihuana use in America and then have a discussion from there. I advocate legalization, but I think it can stand on its own merits without linking it to the founding fathers. Those that do that are teenagers and the ignorant. I'm sure there are plenty of educated people who don't try and link marihuana use to the founding fathers, but yet still advocate its legalization. There's also the possibility that there are those who have never smoked pot in their life who advocate it too.

The "History Channel" has made programs on illegal drugs that talked about the history of marihuana and I know that may not be accurate, but it may be a good place to start to see their sources and see how they trace it back and then go from there. It may be a project I take up, but I don't think anybody needs to get upset over this discussion. Yeah, it drives me crazy the there is so much misinformation about history out there and some schools only spend one paragraph on the ACW and its ridiculous that there's an Abe Lincoln Vampire Hunter movie out there. I don't even like Lincoln all that much and I refuse to watch that movie, but I'm not going to waste my time getting upset over it. People are choosing American Idle over the American Presidency and people chose to be ignorant over history, which is a shame, but until the school systems are fixed, nothing will change.

I've said my two cents on the subject, if I come up with evidence, I'll be happy to post it.


Heres links to the documentaries I'm talking about.


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Old November 28th, 2012, 09:14 AM   #39

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Some great points brought up here. How about if we stepped back and looked at how abundant smoking it was with regular colonists? Anyone seen diaries or anything of these people admitting to it?

Also, lets think outside the box here. With all this distrust of water etc, what about weed teas or soups or any other consumable that would activate the THC without smoking it?
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Old November 28th, 2012, 06:14 PM   #40

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Originally Posted by ucanefan View Post
Some great points brought up here. How about if we stepped back and looked at how abundant smoking it was with regular colonists? Anyone seen diaries or anything of these people admitting to it?

Also, lets think outside the box here. With all this distrust of water etc, what about weed teas or soups or any other consumable that would activate the THC without smoking it?
The documents are what seems to be missing. If you take the simple facts, which is that the herb's properties were known for millennia, there was ample supply of the plant as a fiber source, there was no law against it and people were not living in a puritanical society, you can assume that there was some use, but it's surprising how little is written, either in praise or as a moral horror or anything else. In the US, little attention was paid until early in the 20th century and later the 1937 Federal Law, which may have been enacted less out of reforming zeal than due to the desire of several rich guys to protect their investment in forest products (newsprint) and nylon (clothing fiber). Given moral urgency by linking pot with attitudes about Jazz and race (associated with pot), a crusade was generated. The disapproval was largely a 20th century product, not found 2 centuries earlier.
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