Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > American History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

American History American History Forum - United States, Canada, Mexico, Central and South America


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 28th, 2012, 07:36 AM   #151

Baltis's Avatar
Goat Whisperer
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: Texas
Posts: 2,673
Blog Entries: 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancientgeezer View Post
Is it possible that the large number of "patriots" newly claimed is a bit like all of the French being in the Resistance or the Free French after WW2?
It was clearly advantageous to be a loyalist while the army was in town and a patriot when the rebels arrived. Some people must have made small fortunes ( or large ones) out of supplying the troops and others lost all of their property and sometimes their lives for having the wrong political views.
no doubt a lot of that went on in the southern states. The SC militia under Pickens and Williamson went patriot when the 2nd Cherokee War broke out in 1776. Prior to that, many of them were loyalist leaning friends of the Cunninghams and Moses Kirkland (both famous SC loyalists). The regiments remained patriot and took part in the GA invasions of East Florida during 1777 and 1778. Then, when Charleston fell in 1780, Pickens and Williamson gave parole along with almost their entire regiments. That was in June. After Sumter spanked Tarleton at Blackstocks (which also followed the success at King's Mountain), Elijah Clarke visited Pickens at Long Canes and got him to break parole. Pickens famously returned and assisted Morgan at Cowpens and later Greene during his southern campaign. Williamson remained on parole and was treated as a traitor even though he doesn't seem to have ever joined the British. Williamson was later reinstated but only after having been atainted with loyalism by the SC legislature.
Baltis is offline  
Remove Ads
Old November 28th, 2012, 08:24 AM   #152
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,923

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongo View Post
It's also worth noting that the Americans defeated their invader in the ARW, where the French in WWII did not.
Who invaded the Americans (by which i mean citizens of the soon to be USA)?
Baldtastic is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 08:43 AM   #153

Rongo's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: Ohio
Posts: 5,685

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldtastic View Post
Who invaded the Americans (by which i mean citizens of the soon to be USA)?
John Wilkes, Lord Mayor of London, answered your question:

Quote:
"We are fighting for the subjection, the unconditional submission of a country infinitely more extended than our own... "

Source: The Parliamentary History of England from the Earliest Period to the Year ... - William Cobbett, Thomas Curson Hansard - Google Books
So did Solicitor General Alexander Wedderburn:

Quote:
"Our thunders must go forth. America must be conquered."

Source: The Scots Magazine ... - Google Books
Both statements, by the way, made several months before the Americans declared independence.

Last edited by Rongo; November 28th, 2012 at 08:57 AM. Reason: added last sentence
Rongo is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 09:09 AM   #154

tjadams's Avatar
Epicurean
 
Joined: Mar 2009
From: Texas
Posts: 25,394
Blog Entries: 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancientgeezer View Post
Is it possible that the large number of "patriots" newly claimed is a bit like all of the French being in the Resistance or the Free French after WW2?
It was clearly advantageous to be a loyalist while the army was in town and a patriot when the rebels arrived. Some people must have made small fortunes ( or large ones) out of supplying the troops and others lost all of their property and sometimes their lives for having the wrong political views.
Sure, that makes total sense to pay lip service to whomever is in temporarily in charge and
yes, many farmers did make a profit by charge high, price gouging sums.
tjadams is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 09:09 AM   #155

Kevinmeath's Avatar
Acting Corporal
 
Joined: May 2011
From: Navan, Ireland
Posts: 7,082

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongo View Post
....................................

It's also worth noting that the Americans defeated their invader in the ARW, where the French in WWII did not.

How could the Americans defeat an invader? how can King George 'invade' his own colony?

Yes 'Americans' fought a successful rebellion or perhaps better put as a revolution but not an invasion as such.
Kevinmeath is online now  
Old November 28th, 2012, 09:16 AM   #156

tjadams's Avatar
Epicurean
 
Joined: Mar 2009
From: Texas
Posts: 25,394
Blog Entries: 6

I see your point Kevin.
The colonies were in armed rebellion, wanting to throw off one form of government and
to create their own nation, based on their laws. The colonies were upset at the laws
passed by the legitimate government and decided to leave the fold instead of function within.
It was as much a civil war as a Revolution.
tjadams is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 09:42 AM   #157

Rongo's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: Ohio
Posts: 5,685

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjadams View Post
The colonies were in armed rebellion, wanting to throw off one form of government and
to create their own nation, based on their laws. The colonies were upset at the laws
passed by the legitimate government and decided to leave the fold instead of function within.
The American rebellion was about a lot more than the laws passed by Parliament without their consent. The Americans had been putting up with unfair laws from Parliament for years, including even the "Intolerable Acts", with only minor acts of insurrection. The Americans didn't even rebel when the King sent troops to occupy Boston. It was only when those troops were sent out into the Massachussets countryside to sieze American armaments that the Americans rebelled. And even then, they still didn't declare independence. Americans wouldn't declare independence until they had been at war with Britain for more than a year.

Quote:
It was as much a civil war as a Revolution.
I have to disagree. Although there was a civil war component within America in the contest between the Tories and the Patriots, the contest between America and Britain was not a civil war. America was not an integral part of Great Britain - a fact that was recognized by EVERYBODY. America had no representation in Parliament. America was merely a colony of the British Empire.

Last edited by Rongo; November 28th, 2012 at 09:56 AM. Reason: oops, never mind
Rongo is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 09:47 AM   #158

Baltis's Avatar
Goat Whisperer
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: Texas
Posts: 2,673
Blog Entries: 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldtastic View Post
Who invaded the Americans (by which i mean citizens of the soon to be USA)?
Just noticing this and wanted to interject a minor point. The southern 'invasions' of 1778 and 1780 show all the signs of an invasion. They came by sea and assaulted coastal cities. Then into a hostile countryside with troop columns only. (not safe for a redcoat to be caught in the countryside alone). Then into a forced occupation very similar to one that would be necessary following the invasion of a foreign nation.

come to think of it, the Philadelphia campaign fits the very same mold.
Baltis is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 09:50 AM   #159

Baltis's Avatar
Goat Whisperer
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: Texas
Posts: 2,673
Blog Entries: 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongo View Post

I have to disagree. Although there was a civil war component within America in the contest between the Tories and the Patriots, the contest between America and Britain was not a civil war. America was not an integral part of Great Britain - a fact that was recognized by EVERYBODY. America had no representation in Parliament. America was a colony that was part of the British Empire.
Certainly the British saw a substantial difference between English citizens and colonists in America. Considered the colonists a second class type of citizen who were beneath them and not worthy of participation in the political process.
Baltis is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 10:22 AM   #160

tjadams's Avatar
Epicurean
 
Joined: Mar 2009
From: Texas
Posts: 25,394
Blog Entries: 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongo View Post

I have to disagree. Although there was a civil war component within America in the contest between the Tories and the Patriots, the contest between America and Britain was not a civil war. America was not an integral part of Great Britain - a fact that was recognized by EVERYBODY. America had no representation in Parliament. America was merely a colony of the British Empire.
I have to disagree. Every colony under the British flag made its people British
subjects and subject to His Majesty's rules. They were not given an option of
deciding what rules or laws they would obey. The legal governmental body
was British and if you took up arms against the crown, you were a rebel.
tjadams is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > American History

Tags
colonial, parliament, seats


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pressurized cabins & ejections seats WW 2 Black hornet War and Military History 3 July 21st, 2010 11:25 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.