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Old November 26th, 2012, 05:09 PM   #1
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Colonial seats in Parliament


I've been wondering if the colonies had been offered seats in Parliament as equal partners with the rest of England , would the Rev War still have happened?
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Old November 26th, 2012, 05:45 PM   #2

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I've been wondering if the colonies had been offered seats in Parliament as equal partners with the rest of England , would the Rev War still have happened?
Yes it would have.

The War was never about freedom of man and all the lofty ideals that would later be spouted to justify the war.

It was about money. All 13 colonies could have had seats at Westminster and the war would still have happen.

A vile conspiracy hatched by the rich property owning slave masters and the laypeople of the church to overthrow the Empire in America is all it was.

Why ask for equal representation when you can get rid of all taxes and set yourself up as landed aristocracy.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 06:17 PM   #3

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I've been wondering if the colonies had been offered seats in Parliament as equal partners with the rest of England , would the Rev War still have happened?
No, I don't think it would have. The colonists needed a voice in government, and they believed they were entitled to that right. Without that voice, they had to go to extreme means to make themselves heard. The extreme means they went to resulted in extreme measures being taken against them, by the government they had no voice in. This caused them to go to even more extreme means. It was a vicious cycle that could only have one result.

Equal representation would have put an end to that cycle. Of course, equal representation would never have been acceptable to the British. With all the room for growth that was available in the colonies, it would only be a matter of time before equal representation, at least on a population basis, meant that the colonies would dwarf the Mother country in terms of representation. Then Britain would effectively become a colony of America.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 06:25 PM   #4

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No, I don't think it would have. The colonists needed a voice in government, and they believed they were entitled to that right. Without that voice, they had to go to extreme means to make themselves heard. The extreme means they went to resulted in extreme measures being taken against them, by the government they had no voice in. This caused them to go to even more extreme means. It was a vicious cycle that could only have one result.

Equal representation would have put an end to that cycle. Of course, equal representation would never have been acceptable to the British. With all the room for growth that was available in the colonies, it would only be a matter of time before equal representation, at least on a population basis, meant that the colonies would dwarf the Mother country in terms of representation. Then Britain would effectively become a colony of America.

I am not faulting you for espousing the text book answer but ponder this.

One of the main factors of the war was the increase in taxes such as on paper, tea and stamps. What history sometimes fails to mention is that these taxes were not for the gain of the Crown but to PAY for the troops being used to protect the colonies from enemies, mainly the hostile Natives and French.

So the colonies revolted because the Government asked them to help pay for their own protection? Interesting.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 06:30 PM   #5

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I am not faulting you for espousing the text book answer but ponder this.

One of the main factors of the war was the increase in taxes such as on paper, tea and stamps. What history sometimes fails to mention is that these taxes were not for the gain of the Crown but to PAY for the troops being used to protect the colonies from enemies, mainly the hostile Natives and French.

So the colonies revolted because the Government asked them to help pay for their own protection? Interesting.
At the time of the American Revolution, ALL taxes had been repealed except a paltry tax on tea. Taxes had very little to do with the revolution. The revolution was about this:

Quote:
The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.


Source: Declaration of Independence - Text Transcript
As can be seen, the issue of taxation, which I highlighted above, played a very small role in the matter. Furthermore, the colonists were perfectly capable of defending themselves against the Natives. And the French were Britain's enemy, not the colonists' enemy (as evidenced by the fact that they sided with the colonists against the British during the Revolutionary War).

Last edited by Rongo; November 26th, 2012 at 06:36 PM.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 06:45 PM   #6

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At the time of the American Revolution, ALL taxes had been repealed except a paltry tax on tea. Taxes had very little to do with the revolution. The revolution was about this:



As can be seen, the issue of taxation, which I highlighted above, played a very small role in the matter. Furthermore, the colonists were perfectly capable of defending themselves against the Natives. And the French were Britain's enemy, not the colonists' enemy.
I am not saying that the English government in Westminster was perfect but this text..this Declaration of Independence as it is called seems to only be a fine piece of propaganda put forth to divert from the real issue of the of illegal and mutinous acts of a landed few in the colonies.

From what I remember most of the Southern colonies before the war were ambiguous about the war against the Crown and the New England states were nearly against it with a couple of them on the fence about declaring independence at all.

I have never seen written any mention of the so called crimes committed against the colonies beyond the tax issue. Why would the colonies not go to war over any of the other issues? Why use the taxes as a breaking point and not the imposing of arbitrary governance on the provinces or the meeting away from public records as an issue to go to war for?

If you open most American text books they are going to say it was taxes. Why? Because even if the taxes were repealed the colonist rioted in Boston over them and leaving British forces no choice but to enact civil action. (For the record the Boston Massacre was no massacre since only 3 people were actually killed, and then only because British forces were accosted in the Streets.)
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Old November 26th, 2012, 06:48 PM   #7

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I agree with Rongo.
I see the Revolution, or A revolution still happening no matter if there
were colonials in Parliament, all what was needed was time. The Americans had
grown used to self-government and self-rule and being told by a far away crown
to not do this, or not do that or not cross what mountain range ( Appalachian Mountains),
and while taxes and the Navigation Act were important, it wasn't a deal breaker.
With the French & Indian War over, that threat was gone and the seeds of Enlightenment,
'social contracts' and Republicanism began to simmer.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 06:52 PM   #8

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Originally Posted by Paragonrex View Post
I am not saying that the English government in Westminster was perfect but this text..this Declaration of Independence as it is called seems to only be a fine piece of propaganda put forth to divert from the real issue of the of illegal and mutinous acts of a landed few in the colonies.

From what I remember most of the Southern colonies before the war were ambiguous about the war against the Crown and the New England states were nearly against it with a couple of them on the fence about declaring independence at all.

I have never seen written any mention of the so called crimes committed against the colonies beyond the tax issue. Why would the colonies not go to war over any of the other issues? Why use the taxes as a breaking point and not the imposing of arbitrary governance on the provinces or the meeting away from public records as an issue to go to war for?

If you open most American text books they are going to say it was taxes. Why? Because even if the taxes were repealed the colonist rioted in Boston over them and leaving British forces no choice but to enact civil action. (For the record the Boston Massacre was no massacre since only 3 people were actually killed, and then only because British forces were accosted in the Streets.)
If you've "never seen written any mention of the so called crimes committed against the colonies beyond the tax issue", I would suggest you brush up on your American history. Regarding the Boston Massacre, I've heard this sentiment before about a "measly" number of Americans being killed. So what were British troops doing occupying an American city in the first place? Were they there to protect it from the Natives and the French?
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Old November 26th, 2012, 07:38 PM   #9

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If you've "never seen written any mention of the so called crimes committed against the colonies beyond the tax issue", I would suggest you brush up on your American history. Regarding the Boston Massacre, I've heard this sentiment before about a "measly" number of Americans being killed. So what were British troops doing occupying an American city in the first place? Were they there to protect it from the Natives and the French?

My American history is pretty good.

And to answer the question you asked....It is called a garrison.

Most major colonial cities would have one, to protect commerce and the Kings peace. The troops were increased following demonstrations in Boston. And yes Garrisons were in place to protect against the enemies of the Colonial Britain namely French and Native aggression. Your assertion that the French were not enemies of the colonies is misinformed and naive as the French Indian Wars proved. The burned British towns and homesteads in America attest to that. The one and only reason that France came to the colonies RESCUE (For the war was lost to America without the help of France.) was to spite the British and weaken them as part of the ongoing war between the French and British Empires
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Old November 26th, 2012, 08:41 PM   #10
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What if the king had put the colonial agents on the privy council? That would have given them more say then a few seats in parliament.
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