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Old December 14th, 2012, 09:47 AM   #101

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And what is America doing now? and what did America do after WWII? How many wars did America start after WWII? what nation used the first atomic bomb and against the Japanese? The point is only America is allowed to invade and conquer' anyone else does it, they are seen as evil invaders and conquers.
It's true, America should have been punished for crimes not yet committed. Eye roll
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Old December 14th, 2012, 11:14 AM   #102
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Heads up, you're arguing with someone who blames the Jews for WWII - might be best to let it lie.
Ah, thanks for the heads up...
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Old December 14th, 2012, 11:48 AM   #103

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Originally Posted by Nemowork View Post
It possibly was, by the time they got to late 1944 and the L model they had assisted control surfaces for greater maneuverability and better engines that for the first time outpaced the increase in weight caused by fixing its combat defects so it could outfly and outperform most german piston fighters.
Unfortunately it was too late for the P-38 in Europe as an escort fighter in the 8th Air Force, because by the time the P38L arrived in Europe the high command had already decided to replace the P-38 with the P-51, and the P-38L saw almost no service in the role for the 8th.
In the 8th the story of the P-38 is one of early optimism which was soon replaced with disappointment with problems with its engines, difficulty in operating above 20,000ft, and poor cockpit heating which caused problems with icing of the canopy and acute physical discomfort for the pilot.
In the 8th the nickname for the P-38 was 'The Icebox' and it wasn't a compliment
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Old December 14th, 2012, 12:56 PM   #104
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Unfortunately it was too late for the P-38 in Europe as an escort fighter in the 8th Air Force, because by the time the P38L arrived in Europe the high command had already decided to replace the P-38 with the P-51, and the P-38L saw almost no service in the role for the 8th.
In the 8th the story of the P-38 is one of early optimism which was soon replaced with disappointment with problems with its engines, difficulty in operating above 20,000ft, and poor cockpit heating which caused problems with icing of the canopy and acute physical discomfort for the pilot.
In the 8th the nickname for the P-38 was 'The Icebox' and it wasn't a compliment
The P-38 was a great escort fighter - in its element, which was the Pacific. A dual engined aircraft was an advantage for pilots flying longer missions over open sea.

Up until around mid-1944 Luftwaffe aircraft were still better (but by mid-1944 there wasn't that much left of the Luftwaffe). Even so, revised tactics enabled P-38s to counter bf109s and fw190s attacking bombing formations over Germany.

The Japanese did not produce many aircraft types better than those with which they began the war (maybe one or two Nakajima army types), and the P-38 did its best work from the Solomons campaign until the P-51 became available in the Pacific.

It was a good photo recon plane as well.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 02:48 PM   #105

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US aircraft were built with the Pacific or, at least, American conditions in mind. Few US officials or designers had cold, damp Europe in mind, nor having to fly escort duties with very high altitude bombers.

However, range was always important to US designers. America's a big place!

In short, the US air force was essentially a small, peacetime force when WW2 broke out in Europe. The US air forces had suffered a lot in the economic conditions of the 30's. It was asking a lot to (a) catch up with production and (b) design (perfectly) aircraft specifically for North European conditions.

What did for the Luftwaffe was the sheer numbers of Allied aircraft. For instance, the Allies had over 5000 fighters over Normandy on the first day of the D-Day landings. The Luftwaffe had just 119 serviceable fighters in the area, and the attrition rates amongst pilots (their real problem: production of planes was actually higher than in 1941) meant inexperienced pilots were not just outnumbered, but out flown.

Japanese aircraft such as the "Oscar" and, later, "Tony" and, of course, Zero were superb but not developed enough. Lack of armour and radio definitely saved weight and gave the Zero in incredible range and manoeuvrability, but when American planes arrived with more fire power than the F4F, this became a real disadvantage, especially when American pilots learned, the hard way, not to get into a turning fight with a Zero. I think it was John Thach who said "if it's you against a single zero, run like hell. You're outnumbered". Don't quote me on that, though
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Old December 14th, 2012, 10:50 PM   #106

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It was a good photo recon plane as well.
Even with these, for the more dangerous long range photo recon missions to Germany, the 8th USAAF had to replace the P-38 with the Spitfire.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 11:07 PM   #107

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A dual engined aircraft was an advantage for pilots flying longer missions over open sea..
It had its disadvantages as well
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20th Fighter Group Headquarters
APO 637 U.S. Army
(E-2)

3 June 1944

Subject: P-38 Airplane in Combat.

To: Commanding General, VIII Fighter Command, APO 637, U.S. Army.

1. The following observations are being put in writing by the undersigned at the request of the Commanding General, VII FC. They are intended purely as constructive criticism and are intended in any way to "low rate" our present equipment.

2. After flying the P-38 for a little over one hundred hours on combat missions it is my belief that the airplane, as it stands now, is too complicated for the 'average' pilot. I want to put strong emphasis on the word 'average, taking full consideration just how little combat training our pilots have before going on as operational status.

3. As a typical case to demonstrate my point, let us assume that we have a pilot fresh out of flying school with about a total of twenty-five hours in a P-38, starting out on a combat mission. He is on a deep ramrod, penetration and target support to maximum endurance. He is cruising along with his power set at maximum economy. He is pulling 31" Hg and 2100 RPM. He is auto lean and running on external tanks. His gun heater is off to relieve the load on his generator, which frequently gives out (under sustained heavy load). His sight is off to save burning out the bulb. His combat switch may or may not be on. Flying along in this condition, he suddenly gets "bounced", what to do flashes through his mind. He must turn, he must increase power and get rid of those external tanks and get on his main. So, he reaches down and turns two stiff, difficult gas switches {valves} to main - turns on his drop tank switches, presses his release button, puts the mixture to auto rich (two separate and clumsy operations), increases his RPM, increases his manifold pressure, turns on his gun heater switch (which he must feel for and cannot possibly see), turns on his combat switch and he is ready to fight. At this point, he has probably been shot down or he has done one of several things wrong. Most common error is to push the throttles wide open before increasing RPM. This causes detonation and subsequent engine failure. Or, he forgets to switch back to auto rich, and gets excessive cylinder head temperature with subsequent engine failure.

4. In my limited experience with a P-38 group, we have lost as least four (4) pilots, who when bounced, took no immediate evasive action. The logical assumption is that they were so busy in the cockpit, trying to get organized that they were shot down before they could get going.

5. The question that arises is, what are you going to do about it? It is standard procedure for the group leader to call, five minutes before R/V and tell all the pilots to "prepare for trouble". This is the signal for everyone to get into auto rich, turn drop tank switches on, gun heaters on, combat and sight switches on and to increase RPM and manifold pressure to maximum cruise. This procedure, however, does not help the pilot who is bounced on the way in and who is trying to conserve his gasoline and equipment for the escort job ahead.

6. What is the answer to these difficulties? During the past several weeks we have been visited at this station time and time again by Lockheed representatives, Allison representatives and high ranking Army personnel connected with these two companies. They all ask about our troubles and then proceed to tell us about the marvelous mechanisms that they have devised to overcome these troubles that the Air Force has turned down as "unnecessary". Chief among these is a unit power control, incorporating an automatic manifold pressure regulator, which will control power, RPM and mixture by use of a single lever. It is obvious that there is a crying need for a device like that in combat.

7. It is easy to understand why test pilots, who have never been in combat, cannot readily appreciate what each split second means when a "bounce" occurs. Every last motion when you get bounced is just another nail in your coffin. Any device which would eliminate any of the enumerated above, are obviously very necessary to make the P-38 a really effective combat airplane.

8. It is also felt that that much could done to simplify the gas switching system in this airplane. The switches {valve selector handles} are all in awkward positions and extremely hard to turn. The toggle switches for outboard tanks are almost impossible to operate with gloves on.

9. My personal feeling about this airplane is that it is a fine piece of equipment, and if properly handled, takes a back seat for nothing that the enemy can produce. But it does need simplifying to bring it within the capabilities of the 'average' pilot. I believe that pilots like Colonel Ben Kelsey and Colonel Cass Huff are among the finest pilots in the world today. But I also believe that it is difficult for men like them to place their thinking and ability on the level of a youngster with a bare 25 hours in the airplane, going into his first combat. That is the sort of thinking that will have to be done, in my opinion, to make the P-38 a first-class all around fighting airplane.

HAROLD J. RAU
Colonel, Air Corps,
Commanding.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 02:45 AM   #108

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America forced The Japanese to declare war on USA in return knowing that Germany will declare war on USA means that USA had a reason to go to Europe. America was run by Jews and they wanted to go to Europe to destroy Germany. If America really wanted to stay out of WWII, they would had done so easily.
Bigotry aside, this argument has one enormous hole. There was no guarantee that Germany would declare war on America in the event of hostilities between the US and Japan. In fact, the tripartite pact only specified that the parties should come to the aid of each other IF they were attacked, not if they were the attacker. So if such a calculation (pick a fight with Japan so Germany will declare war) proves unfounded in 1941, America then has a war with Japan (whom they didn't want to fight) and peace with Germany (whom they did). You're living in a house of cards.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 02:58 AM   #109

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When did Germany ally with Japan?

Prior to that, Germany had been on the side of China against the Japanese, which could have left the US in an interesting position in the Far East, fighting against Germany in Europe but with them in Asia.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 03:05 AM   #110

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Originally Posted by diddyriddick View Post
Bigotry aside, this argument has one enormous hole. There was no guarantee that Germany would declare war on America in the event of hostilities between the US and Japan. In fact, the tripartite pact only specified that the parties should come to the aid of each other IF they were attacked, not if they were the attacker. So if such a calculation (pick a fight with Japan so Germany will declare war) proves unfounded in 1941, America then has a war with Japan (whom they didn't want to fight) and peace with Germany (whom they did). You're living in a house of cards.
Absolutely right. No one could forsee that Adolf would go fruitloop and declare war on America.
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