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Old December 11th, 2012, 01:34 PM   #51

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Hitlers reasoning was the establishment of the Germanic peoples as the supreme racial group in Europe with the extermination and subjection of any race or group which opposed them.

I think we can safely say that Hitlers reasoning was anything but 'just'
And that makes me mad. I have no problem with people who think there nation is "the best." It's ubiquitous and seems to be a natural feeling. But his actions are unacceptable. You can think your people best and still love others. Anyhoo, back to the topic. Next to Ireland, I think the Poles have a very sad history. So I guess I'm oversensitive about them. Why should they have to knuckle under to Hitler, you know
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Old December 11th, 2012, 01:40 PM   #52

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It's not my opinion, it's my experience. Not all SSPXers are like that, but a good many are. But if it makes everyone happy, I will clarify even more. The trad Catholics that I have dealt with are mostly people who are sympathetic to Confederates and Nazis.
I don't find this offensive, I'm a huge fan of Franco, who was a practicing Catholic(not a trad) and who gave help to a naz who was also a Catholic. I believe he was right to do so. My experience is that they support the Nazis without reserve. I find it personally upsetting since Hitler had Catholics murdered, stabbed the Church in the back, and seemed to be a bit of an occultist. I believe he wrote a poem to Odin.
I am sure you, as a Catholic, are familiar with the "Triborugh [sp?] Confession", it seems you disagree with them, do I assume correctly?
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Old December 11th, 2012, 01:43 PM   #53

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As a Catholic I am sure you are familiar with the "Triborugh Confession", it seems you disagree with them, do I assume correctly?
I'm sorry, I'm not familiar. Could you explain.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 01:45 PM   #54

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Ah, true...I had forgotten about that one, then there was also the Munich Agreement. Hitler wasn't very good at keeping any agreement he made.
Indeed, as one of Hitler's practical jokes clearly showed.

On one of Ribbentrop's birthdays during the war Hitler presented him with a box, it was supposed to be filled with copies of treaties and agreements created by Ribbentrop, but when he opened it, it was empty.
Hitler explained while laughing that he could not find a single treaty or agreement that Ribbentrop had made that had not eventually been broken.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 01:55 PM   #55

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I'm not one of those "my country right or wrong" people. My unschooled opinion is that maybe we shouldn't have gotten involved in WWI and that, like Grant, the Mexican American War was unjust(although we were more than fair in treaty and compensation). That being said, I think the Union was right in the Civil War and that we were on the right side of WWII. Both put me at odds with many facebook friends and I have to see many posts to the contrary. Quiet a few are inaccurate. However I saw this one today. Can anyone confirm or deny how true it is? :
"Reasons for Hitler's Declaration of War on Poland, as it really boils down to 3 things:
1. Danzig was 98% German and wanted to be German, and to be re-united with the Fatherland, but the WWI allies who only gave lip service to “democracy” and “the right of self-determination”
2. Poland’s stubbornness, and complete unwillingness to negotiate in good faith, while being encouraged and duped by the UK and France to not settle on even the most generous proposals put forth by the German Reich for the transit corridor
3. The outrageous and heinous atrocities being committed against the German ethnic minorities which the world media did not report on, and which the alleged “freedom and peace loving” and “democratic” allies and League of Nations” refused to acknowledge, much less take action on. They knew about this of course, but were intent on letting all these wounds fester and on fomenting war." JFG
I don't see how this has any relevance regarding the US entering WWII. That was all 1939, and yes it was mostly jingoistic baloney, including staged "attacks" which the Nazis claimed to have been carried out by Polish border guards, all the while the bodies found where actually prisoners from German camps executed and dressed in German uniforms etc. Poland knew it was pressed between two very aggressive imperialistic neighbours and had no intention of being the one to ignite the flame. Hitler had even hoped for war against the Allies earlier with his invasion of Czechoslovakia, but as that didn't pan out a new reason had to be concocted.

Anyway, by late 1941 this was long since water under the bridge. Germany had seized almost all of Europe, attacked the Soviet Union, and posed a serious threat to all shipping in the Atlantic.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 01:59 PM   #56

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Hitler did have good reasons for invading Poland, as listed in the OP
Yes, all reasons invented by Hitlers regime. So of course they were good, they were after all the grand masters of propaganda.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:09 PM   #57
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Yes, all reasons invented by Hitlers regime. So of course they were good, they were after all the grand masters of propaganda.
Not entirely invented, there's little doubt that the citizens of the Free City identified closer with Germany than Poland and, in ordinary circumstances, self-determination is a rather strong argument. But there were treaties in place for a reason and the balance of power in Europe was more important than who represented the Free City in foreign affairs. Absent treaties, Hitler may have been justified in taking Danzig, but in light of them he certainly was not.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:09 PM   #58
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When it comes to murdering Poles the Germans are the clear 'winners'.

According to modern Polish historians the Nazi's murdered at least 5,47 million Polish citizens in WW2, while 150,000 were murdered by the Soviets

Polish experts lower nation's WWII death toll < German news | Expatica Germany

Cool read, although there seems to be one difference when I looked more into it. the 150,000 were considered miltary deaths against civilians. This does not take into account the mass deportations the Soviets forced the Polish into during thier occupation. I kinda mentioned it earlier but did not go into much detail. There seemed to be four big deportations, but I'd assume there were more and they kinda ran together. But of this I believe about 750,000 died, and much more were forced into hardship, Ive got a big library so Ill look for a more exact number whenever I get the chance. Then we come to the drafting procedures that the Soviets forced upon their new Polish conquests, which lead to the death of hundreds of thousands more Polish. This might be what your source attributes as 150,000.

We can go further and say that the majority of the casualties of the Warsaw uprising can be at least partially attributed to the Soviets. Pleading for the Polish to rise up and free their own city through Soviet Propaganda and then stopping short and allowing the Germans to massacre them. This might seem far fetched but even if we discount this the Soviets refused to allow the British or the Americans use of their airfields in assisting the Polish and this certainly let many of their leadership fall in preparation to a free Poland.

Finally we come to General Anders who was tasked to create a stand alone Polish Army from the remnants of the Polish Military that were placed in the Russian Gulags. What little he could find were staved and boredline unfit and the majority he was unable to find and had died a Katyn(Spelling?).

I believe we have a disconnect though. When I speak of atrocities against the Polish people I tend to ignore the plethora of Polish Jews killed. For I believe they were killed not for their distinction as Polish, but rather as a distinction as Jewish. Germany wanted to exterminate the Jewish people, no doubt. He also attempted to wipe Warsaw off the map, but he does little in comparison to Stalin to attempt and exterminate the Polish people as a whole. Destroying the officer corps as well as the majority of their fighting force goes to Stalin.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:28 PM   #59

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I don't see how this has any relevance regarding the US entering WWII. That was all 1939, and yes it was mostly jingoistic baloney, including staged "attacks" which the Nazis claimed to have been carried out by Polish border guards, all the while the bodies found where actually prisoners from German camps executed and dressed in German uniforms etc. Poland knew it was pressed between two very aggressive imperialistic neighbours and had no intention of being the one to ignite the flame. Hitler had even hoped for war against the Allies earlier with his invasion of Czechoslovakia, but as that didn't pan out a new reason had to be concocted.

Anyway, by late 1941 this was long since water under the bridge. Germany had seized almost all of Europe, attacked the Soviet Union, and posed a serious threat to all shipping in the Atlantic.
Do you have any links about the staged incident?
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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:31 PM   #60

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I am curious as to how old Yankee is.

US had to enter the war. It may be debatable on what scale, but after Pearl Harbour, it had to.
The better question would be, in my opinion, could've fight between USA and Reich be avoided?
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