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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:34 PM   #61

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Originally Posted by Glowin View Post
I am curious as to how old Yankee is.

US had to enter the war. It may be debatable on what scale, but after Pearl Harbour, it had to.
The better question would be, in my opinion, could've fight between USA and Reich be avoided?
This is my fault, I left out a comment on the post that made me draw that conclusion. Here is the common:
From the diaries of James Forrestal:

December 27th, 1945

Played golf today with Joe Kennedy. I asked him about his conversations with Roosevelt and Neville Chamberlain from 1938 on. He said Chamberlain’s position in 1938 was that England had nothing with which to fight and that she could not risk going to war with Hitler. Kennedy’s view : That Hitler would have fought Russia without any later conflict with England if it had not been for Bullitt’s urging on Roosevelt in the summer of 1939 that the Germans must be faced down about Poland ; neither the French nor the British would have made Poland a cause of war if it had not been for the constant needling from Washington. Bullitt, he said, kept telling Roosevelt that the Germans wouldn’t fight, Kennedy that they would, and that they would overrun Europe. Chamberlain, he says, stated that America and the world Jews had forced England into the war. In his telephone conversation with Roosevelt in the summer of 1939 the President kept telling him to put some iron up Chamberlain’s backside. Kennedy’s response always was that putting iron up his backside did no good unless the British had some iron with which to fight, and they did not. ...
What Kennedy told me in this conversation jibes substantially with the remarks Clarence Dillon had made to me already, to the general effect that Roosevelt had asked him in some manner to communicate privately with the British to the end that Chamberlain should have greater firmness in his dealings with Germany. Dillon told me that at Roosevelt’s request he had talked with Lord Lothian in the same general sense as Kennedy reported Roosevelt having urged him to do with Chamberlain. Lothian presumably was to communicate to Chamberlain the gist of his conversation with Dillon.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:35 PM   #62

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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:38 PM   #63

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Reading internet message boards is no substitute for reading books.
Who said it was? I can't read every history book or be well versed on every subject. I'm moving from the Civil War to Maryland history right now. I'm still allowed to inquire about other eras and wars right?
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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:42 PM   #64

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Cool read, although there seems to be one difference when I looked more into it. the 150,000 were considered miltary deaths against civilians. This does not take into account the mass deportations the Soviets forced the Polish into during thier occupation. I kinda mentioned it earlier but did not go into much detail. There seemed to be four big deportations, but I'd assume there were more and they kinda ran together. But of this I believe about 750,000 died, and much more were forced into hardship, Ive got a big library so Ill look for a more exact number whenever I get the chance. Then we come to the drafting procedures that the Soviets forced upon their new Polish conquests, which lead to the death of hundreds of thousands more Polish. This might be what your source attributes as 150,000..
You don't seem to have read the article correctly
The Polish historians have reduced the total of expulsions by the Soviets from 1 million down to 320,000 and they put the total numbers of Polish deaths during WW2 as
Quote:
"between 5.47 million and 5.67 million Polish citizens died at the hands of the Nazis. Some 150,000 perished under the Soviets".
I really doubt that modern Polish historians would wish to underplay the number of deaths caused by the Soviets
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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:55 PM   #65

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Do you have any links about the staged incident?
Yes. Here is the incident I referred to (from memory, I remembed incorrectly regarding the German uniforms, the executed prisoners was dressed in Polish uniforms to resemble killed attackers, of course the Nazis couldn't bear to have even fake Germans killed):
Operation_Himmler Operation_Himmler


Other incidents and German false flag operations leading up to the invasion:

Jab
Gleiwitz_incident Gleiwitz_incident
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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:58 PM   #66
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You don't seem to have read the article correctly
The Polish historians have reduced the total of expulsions by the Soviets from 1 million down to 320,000 and they put the total numbers of Polish deaths during WW2 as
I really doubt that modern Polish historians would wish to underplay the number of deaths caused by the Soviets
Your link is really just a summation of an article I cannot find. The only thing I could find redefined the same numbers as military deaths and civilians killed due to military action. I've gone to the IPN website but I cannot seem to find the original article. I would appreciate it if you could assist me.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:05 PM   #67

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Not entirely invented, there's little doubt that the citizens of the Free City identified closer with Germany than Poland and, in ordinary circumstances, self-determination is a rather strong argument. But there were treaties in place for a reason and the balance of power in Europe was more important than who represented the Free City in foreign affairs. Absent treaties, Hitler may have been justified in taking Danzig, but in light of them he certainly was not.
Of course. I don't deny that the Polish government was as interested in getting Danzig as well as "settling" their minority border problems in less than peaceful fashion than Germany if they had had the power to do so (they eagerly enjoyed their share of the spoils during the German invasion and division of Czechoslovakia, just as as all the other neighbours of that unlucky country did). But at that particular moment, and with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact to top it all off, Poland had no interest whatsoever to provoke any kind of aggression.

They may have had what amounted to a military dictatorship at the time, but its government wasn't suicidal.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 04:44 PM   #68

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Do you have any links about the staged incident?
Gleiwitz_incident Gleiwitz_incident
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Old December 11th, 2012, 05:09 PM   #69

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I don't like Hitler- AT ALL. But Stalin was worse. He had many more people put to death.

* I am not trying to argue the merits of one man v the other man. My point is that I am fond of Poland and my own country(though I hate FDR). Was it acceptable to Hitler to invade Poland? MY visceral reaction is no. Am I awrong?
Stalin also ruled for about ten yours longer then Hitler did. In addition, most of the murders in the Holocaust occurred between 1939 and 1945. Which means 6 million Jews and a further 6 million undesirables were murdered mostly in a six year window of time... And they were murdered because of the Nazi Party's racial policies that derided those born with genetic deformaties or didn't fit the "cultural image" they had designed form themselves, or were of the Jewish faith. The Holocaust was all about hatred. Hatred by the Germans for perpetrating it, and hatred by nearly everyone else by allowing the Nazis to do it.

Stalin killed more people, yes, but Stalin's murders were spread out over a longer period of time, and for the most part were born out of paranoia. The people Stalin had executed were generally people that Stalin felt were plotting against him. And if you go back through history, you'll find countless kings, princes, dukes, and if you count Ancient Rome republican leaders that had men executed for the same reason.

And the German invasion of Poland was unnacceptable. The Nazi Party's policy of "Living Space" was part of plan to expand Germany's borders eastward to provide additional land for the Germans to colonize and enlarge. In theory, once complete, it would give Germany the grain resources to fight a long war against Britain and France if such a war ever came... (a legacy of the German people starving in WWI under the British Blockade)

The consequence of this policy was that any statement Germany made regarding only wanting to unite Germany with ethnic Germans to be NOT trustworthy. This was more then proved after the Munich crisis over the Sudetenland. There, Hitler claimed to be wanting to unite the Germans of the Sedetenland with the Reich to save them from the Czechs who were "oppressing" the Germans. The Czechs weren't, and were willing to defend their land, but France and Britain sold the Czechs out to avoid another war, and Hitler promised, "this is my last territorial demand."

Shortly after, what remained of Czechoslovakia was particianed again. Germany occupied the region around Prague, making it a "Protectorate" though it was essentially annexed to the Reich, gave some portions to Poland and Hungary, and gave the Slovaks their own state as a "puppet" of Nazi Germany. In this, Germany not only reunited Germans with Germany but conquered the Czechs (who were the majority of Czechoslovakia's population) and put them under German rule... And this proved that Hitler and the Nazis weren't to be trusted.

And thus, when it came to Poland, any thought that Hitler would grant any sort of Polish independence is foolish. The Polish Corridor and Danzig were the only regions directly annexed, but it's unlikely that the rest of Poland would truly escape, and given time and German colonization (and a systemmatic murder of the Polish population in its entirity, the Polish Slavs as well as the Jews) all of Poland would become part of Germany if allowed to go unchecked.

Because of that, the German invasion was not justifyable in any sense, and to claim that it was is a sign to me of closing one's eyes to a blatantly evil force because one has already decided to be Anti-Communist first and morally conscious second.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 05:14 PM   #70

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Stalin also ruled for about ten yours longer then Hitler did. In addition, most of the murders in the Holocaust occurred between 1939 and 1945. Which means 6 million Jews and a further 6 million undesirables were murdered mostly in a six year window of time... And they were murdered because of the Nazi Party's racial policies that derided those born with genetic deformaties or didn't fit the "cultural image" they had designed form themselves, or were of the Jewish faith. The Holocaust was all about hatred. Hatred by the Germans for perpetrating it, and hatred by nearly everyone else by allowing the Nazis to do it.

Stalin killed more people, yes, but Stalin's murders were spread out over a longer period of time, and for the most part were born out of paranoia. The people Stalin had executed were generally people that Stalin felt were plotting against him. And if you go back through history, you'll find countless kings, princes, dukes, and if you count Ancient Rome republican leaders that had men executed for the same reason.

And the German invasion of Poland was unnacceptable. The Nazi Party's policy of "Living Space" was part of plan to expand Germany's borders eastward to provide additional land for the Germans to colonize and enlarge. In theory, once complete, it would give Germany the grain resources to fight a long war against Britain and France if such a war ever came... (a legacy of the German people starving in WWI under the British Blockade)

The consequence of this policy was that any statement Germany made regarding only wanting to unite Germany with ethnic Germans to be NOT trustworthy. This was more then proved after the Munich crisis over the Sudetenland. There, Hitler claimed to be wanting to unite the Germans of the Sedetenland with the Reich to save them from the Czechs who were "oppressing" the Germans. The Czechs weren't, and were willing to defend their land, but France and Britain sold the Czechs out to avoid another war, and Hitler promised, "this is my last territorial demand."

Shortly after, what remained of Czechoslovakia was particianed again. Germany occupied the region around Prague, making it a "Protectorate" though it was essentially annexed to the Reich, gave some portions to Poland and Hungary, and gave the Slovaks their own state as a "puppet" of Nazi Germany. In this, Germany not only reunited Germans with Germany but conquered the Czechs (who were the majority of Czechoslovakia's population) and put them under German rule... And this proved that Hitler and the Nazis weren't to be trusted.

And thus, when it came to Poland, any thought that Hitler would grant any sort of Polish independence is foolish. The Polish Corridor and Danzig were the only regions directly annexed, but it's unlikely that the rest of Poland would truly escape, and given time and German colonization (and a systemmatic murder of the Polish population in its entirity, the Polish Slavs as well as the Jews) all of Poland would become part of Germany if allowed to go unchecked.

Because of that, the German invasion was not justifyable in any sense, and to claim that it was is a sign to me of closing one's eyes to a blatantly evil force because one has already decided to be Anti-Communist first and morally conscious second.
He didn't kill more, he killed A LOT more. And I don't think the people being starved to death cared that it was because of "paranoia" or racial hatred. Stalin was worse. We aren't going to agree so I am not going to argue it further. I don't think the genocide of one group is great than that of another group. End of story for me.
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