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Old December 11th, 2012, 08:18 PM   #71

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Many are forgetting that US and Germany were already involved in a Quasi war for several months before Pearl Harbor. The neutrality Roosevelt spoke of was simply lip service to an American public that had no desire to fight another nations war or die for another nation's diplomatic folly. Canada held out on declaring war seven days later then the rest of the commonwealth for the very reason they could legally procure American supplies to ship over to Jolly Ol' England, this wasn't an evil ruse by Canada but one from Roosevelt. Neutral nations do supply belligerents with weapons and supplies without themselves being belligerents. Germany did what it had to do in regards to American shipping. With little effort, and by little I mean not supplying the Allies with the means to fight a war, I believe we could have remained at peace with Germany. Instead we sent our boys to die for Bolshevism and to build a curtain in front of a people who desired the warm embrace of the Reds.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 09:10 PM   #72
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If Hitler had more opportunity like he conquered Russia you would find he'd make Stalin look nice. Nazi plans for Russia were pretty brutal and of the two Stalin was the lesser evil.

Stalin just had more population under control for longer periods, he got to kill almost everyone he wanted to. Hitler's desires remained mostly unfulfilled.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 09:41 PM   #73

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Many are forgetting that US and Germany were already involved in a Quasi war for several months before Pearl Harbor. The neutrality Roosevelt spoke of was simply lip service to an American public that had no desire to fight another nations war or die for another nation's diplomatic folly. Canada held out on declaring war seven days later then the rest of the commonwealth for the very reason they could legally procure American supplies to ship over to Jolly Ol' England, this wasn't an evil ruse by Canada but one from Roosevelt. Neutral nations do supply belligerents with weapons and supplies without themselves being belligerents. Germany did what it had to do in regards to American shipping. With little effort, and by little I mean not supplying the Allies with the means to fight a war, I believe we could have remained at peace with Germany. Instead we sent our boys to die for Bolshevism and to build a curtain in front of a people who desired the warm embrace of the Reds.
What utter drivel!
Canada's delay in declaring war was purely based on McKenzie King's belief in Canadian Autonomy and his desire to have Parliament debate and vote on the measure. King's whole political platform was to establish Canada as an equal and independent power from the UK in fact as well as in legal status.
Britain bought virtually no "arms" from the USA other than artillery ammunition until well into 1940 when massive equipment losses, first in Norway and then in France required desperate measures. The country certainly didn't need to scramble around for a week in September when it know that a conflict was on its way for six months. France, (which is a different country from Britain) did, however, have substantial orders with US factories for aircraft.
As for the US soldiers dying for Bolshevism, I would suggest that they actually died so that the USA, rather than Germany, would gain world economic hegemony.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 10:17 PM   #74

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He didn't kill more, he killed A LOT more. And I don't think the people being starved to death cared that it was because of "paranoia" or racial hatred. Stalin was worse. We aren't going to agree so I am not going to argue it further. I don't think the genocide of one group is great than that of another group. End of story for me.
You're free to think Stalin worse then Hitler if you like, but that does NOT justify Germany's invasion of Poland in 1939.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 12:26 AM   #75
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The Soviets invaded Poland as well. Pretty much, the Nazi's and the Communists were going to divide the place up.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 01:20 AM   #76

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...
From the diaries of James Forrestal:

December 27th, 1945

Played golf today with Joe Kennedy. I asked him about his conversations with Roosevelt and Neville Chamberlain from 1938 on. ... neither the French nor the British would have made Poland a cause of war if it had not been for the constant needling from Washington. ...
I have no doubt that Kennedy believed that to be true. It is a common human failing to believe something is true simply because he wants it to be true.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 02:07 AM   #77

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You're free to think Stalin worse then Hitler if you like, but that does NOT justify Germany's invasion of Poland in 1939.
Who said it did? I think Hitler was very wrong for invading Poland. Who was worse is irrelevant to that.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 11:04 AM   #78

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Who said it did? I think Hitler was very wrong for invading Poland. Who was worse is irrelevant to that.
Then we are in agreement on that.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 11:14 AM   #79

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The Soviets invaded Poland as well. Pretty much, the Nazi's and the Communists were going to divide the place up.
That was sort of the major problem the Western Allies (UK, USA, Free French under De Gaulle, and others) had when dealing with the Soviets...

While Hitler was on extreme political Right and Stalin was on the extreme political Left, it could easily be argued that BOTH were evil. And that argument continues today, though I think the argument largely centers over who was worse. And under the terms of the Ribbentrop/Molotov Pact, both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union appeared to act as allies. As such, I've seen some sources that make the suggestion that the Norwegian operation for the British was not only to cut off German iron ore, but to provide the Western Allies with bases to strike at the Red Army attacking Finland. However, I can not confirm how true this was...

But the Nazi-Soviet pact fell apart in 1941 with Operation Barbarossa which made the Soviet Union an ally of the UK, and then Hitler's declaration of war on the US brought the US into the European war. I'm fairly sure that FDR and Churchill knew how bad Stalin was on some level, BUT also knew that if they didn't work with Stalin and let him get away with certain things, Stalin could pull out, sign a seperate peace and leave the Western Allies to fight the Germans alone.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 12:31 PM   #80

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The Soviets invaded Poland as well. Pretty much, the Nazi's and the Communists were going to divide the place up.
The Soviets tried getting alliances with the UK. and France against any potential German expansion but they would not agree to it. So the Soviets did the next best thing, or they thought, which was to sign an non-agression agreement with the Germans. Agreement included a secret part which called for Poland to be divided.

For the Russian monarchy, Soviets and todays Russia, security has always been paramount. Seven Hundred years of fighting invaders has created this Russian need to have secured borders. The US has never had this problem. Mexico and Canada are not exactly a threat to the US. So, because of this Poland was alway important to Russia. They have wanted Poland to be in there sphere of influence. Back then more then today since back then Poland was located further east.

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Last edited by Epix; December 12th, 2012 at 12:40 PM.
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