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Old January 4th, 2013, 11:57 AM   #11

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Yeah, but what I'm wondering is that why its only happening recently (last few decades) and why it didn't really happen before?
I will try and follow a curious path of thought, just a suggestion.

First of all there is a demographic dynamic to consider: emigration is a way to diminish popular and social pressure in closed societies like the Muslim ones. In similar circumstances it's about poor emigration, so that US are not that permeable for this kind of people. There are already Mexicans and they are the "best choice" [they integrate in a society like the American one, without being a factor of disruption not possible to be governed].

Europe is near and easy to reach and EU is forced to integrate Muslims [we haven't got a near Christian Mexico as depot of poor workers to accept as immigrants, so that after the great wave from Eastern Europe, it remained Africa and Middle East ... Islamic populations].

Islamic immigration to US has been connected with the sphere of influence of the superpower, not to social demographic dynamics. When US fought against Serbians for Bosnians, they accepted that immigration ...
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Old January 4th, 2013, 01:08 PM   #12
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Would they be considered black or white? In a country where people were strictly defined as one or the other this would be important. It wouldn't be worth the trip for a Muslim immigrant if he showed up and was classified as black. Even if a Muslim was able to pass as 'white' in law I doubt he would be considered 'white' by society. He would be an outcast, with too foreign and culture and too foreign a religion.

Great thread BTW.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 01:37 PM   #13

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Would they be considered black or white? In a country where people were strictly defined as one or the other this would be important. It wouldn't be worth the trip for a Muslim immigrant if he showed up and was classified as black. Even if a Muslim was able to pass as 'white' in law I doubt he would be considered 'white' by society. He would be an outcast, with too foreign and culture and too foreign a religion.

Great thread BTW.
This is a good consideration. I can talk about Northern Italy where substantially the Muslim immigration comes from the Balkans [white Muslims], Northern Africa [Egypt and Morocco, and these population are "Arab", nor white neither black for Italians, to say all a Southern Italian can look like an Egyptians ... without a great imagination] and central Africa [black Muslims].

Here the black and the Northern African Muslims integrate better than the ones from the Balkans. Immigrates from Senegal here are popular and welcome, like the ones from Egypt. It's more difficult for who comes from the Balkans. In this I think that prejudices towards Albania and surrounding territories as "land of Mafia" [and such a prejudice by Italians sounds at least curious!] can play a role in this.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 02:31 PM   #14

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Would they be considered black or white? In a country where people were strictly defined as one or the other this would be important. It wouldn't be worth the trip for a Muslim immigrant if he showed up and was classified as black. Even if a Muslim was able to pass as 'white' in law I doubt he would be considered 'white' by society. He would be an outcast, with too foreign and culture and too foreign a religion.
True. Folks like Italians and Jews weren't considered white at first (society wise) even though on paper a person could have been.

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Great thread BTW.
Thanks.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 03:22 PM   #15

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I backed off racism and said ethnocentrism.

Consider the 19th century. Why would the United States be a desirable place for the Ottomans? True, their own empire was crumbling, but the closer and more "cultured" areas with opportunities for secular education would be Europe. A similar dynamic would be for the North Africans to emigrate to England or France. Americans, on the other hand regarded "the Turk" as a barbarian. For those in India and Pakistan there was still relatively little emigration, but the attractive place was England. There was very little emigration from the Pacific Islands to United States as well, though some went to the West Coast.

After WWI, we came almost immediately to the four decades of stiff national quotas, and this emerged directly from the Americans' dislike for Chinese in particular and Asians, South Europeans, and Eastern Europeans in general. California passed its own immigration laws in the 1880's to keep out the Chinese. They were found unconstitutional, it is true, but Congress quickly followed up with anti-Asian restrictions.

Whether white, black, brown, yellow, red, or green, Muslims mostly came from ethnicities that were undesired here.

By the way, I knew a few Muslims when I was growing up in the forties and fifties. By 1960, I knew a lot--mostly Arabs, Iranians, and Pakis. By then there was a significant community of them around Detroit with an Arabic Language newspaper. In Oklahoma (I didn't live there until 1967-1973) there were many students studying Petroleum Engineering. But they came in large numbers in the 1990's as refugees especially from Bosnia and Somalia. From 1960 on, there was a whole new dynamic for immigrants.
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