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Old February 16th, 2013, 08:56 AM   #11

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Didn't brad meltzer do a decoded on this lol
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Old February 16th, 2013, 09:09 AM   #12

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Originally Posted by PragmaticStatistic View Post
Yes, or some variation of it.
Wow. Poor Mr. Jefferson's words are so often used by so many
for their causes; he's maliciously attacked by jealous types and now
to think he wanted a man, or planned for a man, to be murdered? That
is a cornucopia of nothing.
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Old February 16th, 2013, 12:19 PM   #13
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Murdered perhaps , part of a conspiracy no. I grew up in that area and know someting of the vilolent history of " piracy " on the Mississippi . Outlaw gangs terrorized that area for years . Heavily wooded remote areas harbor violent criminals .
For what it is worth, the show tried to make a case that the Brandenburg Stone was proof that the Welsh settled in America and that is was some kind of ancient Welsh land marker that translates as ""Towards strength (to promote unity) divide the land we are spread over purely (justly) between offspring in wisdom." But later in the show it was determined the inscription was more modern Welsh than ancient Welsh. It also focused on missing pages from his journal. I only caught about half the show.

My own research discovered that entire journals were lost when one of the Perogues flipped over and its contents flowed down stream quickly. So it could be possible that Lewis was trying to recall the missing details and someone read what he was writing at the time, and realized the implications of what he was writing. Like many other issues that are considered historical fact, his suicide could be more myth than fact. More of what those in power want us to believe than the truth of events. Like the reason for going to war in Iraq. Lewis had just spent many years bullying the natives of the American northwest into believing his intentions were honorable despite his demonstrating his military might and the threat of what might happen to them if they did not cooperate. Thus, as several of the media indicate, Lewis may have been depressed about what he perceived as his dishonor. Just maybe he learned something about the people he interacted with and realized how what he had done meant the end of their way of life. But, only depressed enough to write down something the government and businessmen might not of approved of.

That is a lot of conspiracy theory, but, just maybe, not much more of a conspiracy than believing in the myth of his suicide when the government has refused to make the body available for DNA and other criminal analysis the Lewis family has repeatedly requested.
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Old February 16th, 2013, 12:35 PM   #14
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Didn't brad meltzer do a decoded on this lol
I ran across something that indicates Meltzer did. However, from my prievious viewing of his show, I wouldn't believe anything Meltzer produces because he never participates in the investigation and the investigations that are done are so crude. More hype and fact.

As for this show, my research after seeing the show indicates they pulled together articles found online and presented enough of a case to look into the possibility that it could be true. I am not saying it is true, only questioning, since there has been over a century of challenges concerning his death. That is why I put up this post to see if anyone else had heard of this before.
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Old February 16th, 2013, 01:57 PM   #15

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couple of things come to mind

1) one shot to the head and the other to the gut -- so he had two pistols and enough of his brain was left for the second shot -- and why shoot yourself in the tummy -- these were single shot ball pistols, best to get it on the first shot, reloading was a time consuming problem

2) pages are missing -- why not the whole book --- since this is proven, then the person who tore the pages was literate and knew what he was after --

3) why was there more then one blood type on the apron --

4) why is the park service refusing a disinterrment proposal by the family. they have every right to check the "historical" story. for all we know, the witnesses could have been outright liars. (first time in history - i think not) and the autopsy could be nothing more then a "forgery"

5) Jefferson had every right to be afraid of the findings of the expedition -- the Hudson Bay Company was anything but a "fur-trapping" club (that was the cover story and they really went "trapping"). and history shows (and this was in another thread awhile back) that the present "washington and oregon" states came within a breath of a missed meeting with a "british agent" of being a part of Canada.

the history of John Jacob Astor is worth looking into ----

Quote:
The U.S. Embargo Act in 1807, however, disrupted his import/export business. With the permission of President Thomas Jefferson, Astor established the American Fur Company on April 6, 1808. He later formed subsidiaries: the Pacific Fur Company, and the Southwest Fur Company (in which Canadians had a part), in order to control fur trading in the Columbia River and Great Lakes areas.
John_Jacob_Astor John_Jacob_Astor

fur trading - yes --- land grab -- ya had better believe that one for sure, the whole misson of lewis and clark was a "land grab".

6) the war of 1812 was just around the corner

-- oh you bet that "jefferson" had some problems with -- at the very least , the VERY least, the british, they could have already been into the "dakota's" and the new gov't would have never known it --- lewis and clark could have just as well walked right into a british outpost and never come back ---


edit -- forgot to add the "freemasonry" connection -- this is one of the most underrated, underreported and least understood things about the founding fathers.

Last edited by davu; February 16th, 2013 at 02:06 PM.
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Old February 16th, 2013, 05:02 PM   #16

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My own research discovered that entire journals were lost when one of the Perogues flipped over and its contents flowed down stream quickly. So it could be possible that Lewis was trying to recall the missing details and someone read what he was writing at the time, and realized the implications of what he was writing.
The idea that Lewis was killed because of what was in his journals makes no sense whatsoever. Several other men kept journals as well, yet none of them were murdered. Either this was a singularly inept conspiracy or you have to assume all other other members of the Expedition were in on it.
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Old February 16th, 2013, 06:18 PM   #17

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His death was too suspicious.
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Old February 16th, 2013, 06:23 PM   #18

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Originally Posted by davu View Post
couple of things come to mind

1) one shot to the head and the other to the gut -- so he had two pistols and enough of his brain was left for the second shot -- and why shoot yourself in the tummy -- these were single shot ball pistols, best to get it on the first shot, reloading was a time consuming problem
Screwing yourself up to commit suicide is not always easy. Frank Nitti was so nervous he missed the first shot to his own head. He hit with the second, but it took another bullet to kill himself. This article mentions three cases of suicide by power drill, one of which involved 3 self-inflicted wounds to the head and chest, another involved 4 self-inflicted wounds.

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2) pages are missing -- why not the whole book --- since this is proven, then the person who tore the pages was literate and knew what he was after --
Torn out pages is far more likely to be the sign of an illiterate person who needed some toilet paper. There are accounts of loose papers being lost during the expedition and there are almost certainly missing books, but no evidence of pages torn out.

You might also be interested in the accounts of John Ordway, who died in 1817, and Joseph Whitehorse who is last mentioned in that year.

September 04, 1805 John Ordway - "the morning clear, but very cold. the ground covred with frost our mockasons froze the mountains covred with snow. ... the Snow over our mockasons in places. we had nothing but a little pearched corn to eat the air on the mountains verry chilley and cold. our fingers aked with the cold

(Flathead Indians) -- these natives are well dressed, descent looking Indians. light complectioned. ... they have the most curious language of any we have seen before. they talk as though they lisped or have a bur on their tongue. we suppose that they are the welch Indians if their is any Such from the language. ... they tell us that they or Some of them have Seen bearded men towards the ocean, but they cannot give us any accurate accoun of the ocean, but we have 4 mountains to cross to go where they saw white men which was on a river as we suppose the Columbian River.


September 05, 1805 John Ordway "the Indian dogs are so ravinous that they eat several pair of the mens Moccasons. ... our officers took down Some of their language found it verry troublesome Speaking to them as all they Say to them has it go through Six languages, and hard to make them understand. these natives have the Stranges language of any we have ever yet seen. they appear to us as though they had an Impedement in their Speech or brogue on their tongue. we think perhaps that they are the welch Indians, U. C. they are verry friendly to us. they Swaped to us some of their good horses and took our worn out horses, ..."

September 06, 1805 Joseph Whitehouse - "we take these Savages to be the Welch Indians if their be any Such from the Language. So Capt. Lewis took down the names of everry thing in their Language, in order that it may be found out whether they are or whether they Sprang or origenated first from the welch or not."

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Originally Posted by davu View Post
3) why was there more then one blood type on the apron --
Neither was Lewis' blood type, so it proves precisely nothing.

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Originally Posted by davu View Post
4) why is the park service refusing a disinterrment proposal by the family. they have every right to check the "historical" story.
The Park Service refused in 1998, the Department of the Interior in 2010. Why would any of the people aid a conspiracy from 200 years ago?

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5) Jefferson had every right to be afraid of the findings of the expedition -- the Hudson Bay Company was anything but a "fur-trapping" club (that was the cover story and they really went "trapping"). and history shows (and this was in another thread awhile back) that the present "washington and oregon" states came within a breath of a missed meeting with a "british agent" of being a part of Canada.
What has the Hudson Bay Company to do with anything? You appear to have compressed a paragraph into a long sentence, skipping anything that ties the various sections together.
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Old February 16th, 2013, 06:40 PM   #19
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Either this was a singularly inept conspiracy or you have to assume all other other members of the Expedition were in on it.
If as you say, we must assume that the other members were knowledgeable about a possible secret Lewis responsibility, then must we assume that because Jefferson, who would become John Adam's Vice President, secretly attacked his best friend John Adams, who would become the current president, that Jefferson would do anything to achieve his goals when he became himself became president? If Jefferson would attack his best friend, and founding father, for political goals, what would stop him from killing one of his own staff considering the volume of money and power involved.
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Old February 16th, 2013, 06:43 PM   #20

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The company was incorporated by English royal charter in 1670 as The Governor and Company of Adventurers of England trading into Hudson's Bay and functioned as the de facto government in parts of North America before European states and later the United States laid claim to those territories. It was at one time the largest landowner in the world,
Hudson's Bay Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i don't have to explain any of this ---
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