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Old June 10th, 2018, 05:42 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by botully View Post
I'm not a fan of President Carter, but I think you are being a bit unfair.
1) I think you assign the President more influence over the economy than he has. The economy was in recession due, in part, to the oil crisis. The Democrats had a comfortable majority in both houses, so the responses to the worst recession since the 30's are not attributable to Ford alone. Besides, who can forget the "WIN" (Whip Inflation Now) buttons? Carter inherited an economy in "stagflation", not a healthy one. 
Ford had turned things around, and inflation at least, was under control. WIN buttons were nothing compared to 21.5% inflation, and the President does have a lot of say in interest rates, he appoints the Fed chairman.

Ford also inherited a poor economy, and got little help from the Democrats, and all tne blame. Carter didn't hesistate to blame Ford, yet refused to take responsibility when the economy got a whole lot worse. You laugh at the WIN button, but Ford tried and did succeed in whipping inflation, Carter failed miserably. Carter did not hesistate to criticize Ford, so as I said it is fair to criticize Carter for an even greater failure than the one he criticized. 21.5% interest rate, and that was all on Carter.


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2) The hostage crisis dominated Carter's last year in office, and I certainly don't agree that he caused it then "made a big deal out of them". Everyone made a big deal of them. I remember the evening news programs had a "Day 153 (or whatever)" graphic displayed during the broadcast, yellow ribbons etc. The Iranian revolution was out of US hands. Carter was heavily pressured into allowing the Shah entry for medical treatment, which touched off the storming of the embassy. Iranian distrust of the US dated from the CIA ousting a popular but inconvenient leftist prime minister in the 50's 
Carter sat in the Rose Garden, Carter helped put the emphasis on the hostages. Did he have the Navy blockade Ior mine Iran ports? Did he get the UN to place sanctions on Iran? Our allies like France dealt with Iran despited the US embargo, if I recalo correctly. There were actions that he could have taken to put more pressure on Iran, but Carter did not take. So he does deserve the blame heaped on him. It was a common excuse it wasn't his fault. Yes it was. He was negligent in not preparing for the potential backlash by taking in the Shah.

[quite=]
While Carter gets the responsibility for the failed rescue mission, he certainly didn't plan it. Had it worked it would have been a triumph. [/quote]

But the rescue mission was a total failure. Not only did they fail to rescue the hostages, but the rescuers failed to destroy incriminating documents when they abandoned one of the aircraft, dicuments that had sensitive information like the name of the Iranian contacts that were to help the rescue mission, thereby endangering our Iranian contacts. There was no excuse for that, heads should have rolled. And Carter had months to prepare a proper resuce mission, and was embarrasing to read about how poorly executed it was. It was Carter's job to see his people, and that included all the military, did their correctly, and he failed.

Carter was commander in chief, the military reports to him. Given tne importance of the mission, he should have kept himself informed, and knowing Carter's micromanaging nature, and his attention to detail, it is very likely he was aware of tne details of the plan. The "buck stops here". He is responsible,



3) I wouldn't blame Carter for the '79 oil crisis; it's a bit more complicated than that.
4) This is true. Well, I don't know about the cousin part, but Carter's failures as a manager are well attested. [/quote]

Carter could have reassured the American Public tnat the overll drop in oil production was slight, and there was no danger of running out of oil. Carter did not do so.


I

Last edited by Bart Dale; June 10th, 2018 at 05:46 PM.
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Old June 11th, 2018, 03:02 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by betgo View Post
He was weak in dealing with the Soviet Union and also Iran. US clients and interests like Liberia were destroyed. The economy was also a mess.
He was a good, perhaps excellent president. People who think he was weak are wrong. I admire him greatly, Reconciling Egypt and Israel was an outstanding achievement. The SALT talks as well. He was at the forefront of the whole recycling movement, He installed solar panels on the White House which that dim bulb Ronald Reagan had removed.

Incidentally, Reagan committed what was a near treasonous act in persuading the Iranians to delay the release of the hostages so he could make himself look “strong”. Reagan was a bad joke on the American people.
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Old June 11th, 2018, 03:34 PM   #123
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He was a good, perhaps excellent president. People who think he was weak are wrong. I admire him greatly, Reconciling Egypt and Israel was an outstanding achievement. The SALT talks as well. He was at the forefront of the whole recycling movement, He installed solar panels on the White House which that dim bulb Ronald Reagan had removed.

Incidentally, Reagan committed what was a near treasonous act in persuading the Iranians to delay the release of the hostages so he could make himself look “strong”. Reagan was a bad joke on the American people.

I don't think he was a good president, and the majority of Americans didn't think so either when they voted him out of office. Not only did he lose the presidency, he lost his party control of the Senate as well. Sorry, but to run up the interest rates to 21.5% is not good, and to say the President had no control over that is simply not so.

The claim that Reagan delayed the release of the hostages is not supported by any actual evidence, and the Iranians could have released the hostages after Carter lost the election, but they waited until Reagan was sworn in office because the Iranians really did not like Carter. And the Iranians likely thought Reagan wouldn't sit around waiting for the Iranians to release the hostages like Carter did without taking action.

Those who say Carter was a good president are always making excuses for him. Losing a valuable ally and turning the country into one of the US biggest foes wasn't his fault, the super high interest rates weren't his fault, the embassy being taken hostage wasn't his fault, the rescue fiasco wasn't his fault, nothing was his fault. Sorry, but it wasn't just a case of bad luck, Carter's policies played a role.
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Old June 11th, 2018, 05:25 PM   #124
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The claim that Reagan delayed the release of the hostages is not supported by any actual evidence, and the Iranians could have released the hostages after Carter lost the election, but they waited until Reagan was sworn in office because the Iranians really did not like Carter. And the Iranians likely thought Reagan wouldn't sit around waiting for the Iranians to release the hostages like Carter did without taking action.
Reagan delayed the release of the hostages. That is factual and well known. The quid pro quo was for Reagan to send planeloads of arms, including missiles, to Iran. He dealt with the devil in service to his self-interest. The Iranians were going to release the hostages anyway but Reagan begged, yes begged, the Iranians not to do so until he was in office. Smiling all the way to the armory, the Iranians agreed. Pathetic and very likely treasonous.
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Old June 12th, 2018, 02:47 PM   #125
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The interest rate was higher than I thought. Anyways, the 21.5% interest rate happened while Carter was President.
Just a minor correction. 21.5 or 18 is still high enough to qualify as usury on some scale somewhere.

Maybe you were thinking of the 30-yr fixed mortgage rate which topped out at a balmy 18.6% in 1981.
https://www.valuepenguin.com/mortgag...mortgage-rates
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Old June 12th, 2018, 05:13 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by royal744 View Post
Reagan delayed the release of the hostages. That is factual and well known. The quid pro quo was for Reagan to send planeloads of arms, including missiles, to Iran. He dealt with the devil in service to his self-interest. The Iranians were going to release the hostages anyway but Reagan begged, yes begged, the Iranians not to do so until he was in office. Smiling all the way to the armory, the Iranians agreed. Pathetic and very likely treasonous.
Can you provide actual sources to back that up? Do you have a tape recording of Reagoan begging? A video?

I suppose Reagan begged the Fed's to raise the interest rates to 21.5% too. And it was all just a coincidence Communism after 60 years just happen to collapse while he was in office and successor. Yah, right.

Last edited by Bart Dale; June 12th, 2018 at 05:44 PM.
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Old June 12th, 2018, 05:26 PM   #127
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Just a minor correction. 21.5 or 18 is still high enough to qualify as usury on some scale somewhere.

Maybe you were thinking of the 30-yr fixed mortgage rate which topped out at a balmy 18.6% in 1981.
https://www.valuepenguin.com/mortgag...mortgage-rates
I am thinking of the prime interest rate, which someone else posted.

The prime interest rate was only 6.25% in November 26, 1976, and still onlh 6.5% may 13, 1977, and it went up to 21.5% December 1980. That is not something Carter could blame on his predecesser, they were falling when he took charge.

The 30 year mortage rates peaked in 1981, but they had been rising under Carter, and by the end of Reagan's first term they were lower than they had been at the end of Carter's presidency, 13.18 vs Carter's 14.79. The 30 year mortage rates were 9% when Carter took office.

Last edited by Bart Dale; June 12th, 2018 at 05:44 PM.
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Old June 12th, 2018, 07:18 PM   #128
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Reagan's scandals


October surprise was not proven.

Perhaps, some of Reagan's other scandals to be about as appalling. Iran-Contra, savings and loans scandal, even the theft of presidential documents.



Carter did have some unsung achievements..........






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Originally Posted by royal744 View Post
He was a good, perhaps excellent president. People who think he was weak are wrong. I admire him greatly, Reconciling Egypt and Israel was an outstanding achievement. The SALT talks as well. He was at the forefront of the whole recycling movement, He installed solar panels on the White House which that dim bulb Ronald Reagan had removed.

Incidentally, Reagan committed what was a near treasonous act in persuading the Iranians to delay the release of the hostages so he could make himself look “strong”. Reagan was a bad joke on the American people.

Last edited by Piccolo; June 12th, 2018 at 07:24 PM.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 05:06 AM   #129
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October surprise was not proven.
Conspiracy theory?
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Old June 15th, 2018, 09:53 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Bart Dale View Post
Can you provide actual sources to back that up? Do you have a tape recording of Reagoan begging? A video?

I suppose Reagan begged the Fed's to raise the interest rates to 21.5% too. And it was all just a coincidence Communism after 60 years just happen to collapse while he was in office and successor. Yah, right.
LOL. None dare call it treason, but treasonous it definitely was. And the Soviet Union collapsed from its internal rot. It was, as they say, “rotten to the core”.
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