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Old March 4th, 2014, 10:42 AM   #51

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LOL! and I told the part of the story you weren't willing to tell...and I provided sources unlike you. So speaking of honesty.......
No, you didn't provide any source on your first post. You just conjured up a slanted story that made Lincoln look as bad as possible, as you did in many of your claims in the OP. You've got a lot of sourcing to do to support all the claims you made.

And quotes that just say "A. Lincoln" after them are not sufficient. We had some guy out here just a couple months ago making the same claims on Lincoln and race as you and he was actually quoting Stephen Douglas. So try so valid sourcing with dates and references to where they can be located (in books or online).

And what is it you want me to source? That it wasn't Lincoln who "ordered" the deaths or that Lincoln pardoned 80% of the Indians? If you insist, I'll be glad to do both while it is already apparent to everyone that you know they are true and are just jerking me around.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 10:56 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Jax Historian View Post
No, you didn't provide any source on your first post. You just conjured up a slanted story that made Lincoln look as bad as possible, as you did in many of your claims in the OP. You've got a lot of sourcing to do to support all the claims you made.

And quotes that just say "A. Lincoln" after them are not sufficient. We had some guy out here just a couple months ago making the same claims on Lincoln and race as you and he was actually quoting Stephen Douglas. So try so valid sourcing with dates and references to where they can be located (in books or online).

And what is it you want me to source? That it wasn't Lincoln who "ordered" the deaths or that Lincoln pardoned 80% of the Indians? If you insist, I'll be glad to do both while it is already apparent to everyone that you know they are true and are just jerking me around.
I have provided several sources already as opposed to you who has provided none.

As for the Lincoln quotes on race I did provide sources on several of them. They are not exactly a secret to anybody who has done some research or knows how to use google.

Lincoln ordered the entire military operation in Minnesota. Pope and all the others were under his command. Yes Lincoln did pardon many...but he also allowed 38 executions after trials that were a farce. Given the patently unfair "trials" they all obviously should have been pardoned or new and fair trials should have been ordered. You think Lincoln praiseworthy for "only" allowing his subordinates to hang 38 men after such "trials"?

And other than the whole issue of arguing over "ordered" vs "allowed" there is the matter of the ethnic cleansing those people suffered, and the deliberate starvation they were subjected to - something that was under Lincoln's control and which was his responsibility to prevent.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 11:05 AM   #53

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As for the Lincoln quotes on race I did provide sources on several of them. They are not exactly a secret to anybody who has done some research or knows how to use google.
Sorry, out here sourcing "several" (less than half) is not how it works, source them all. The issue of dates is going to be critical because the response will be that Linocln's views on race changed over time. Nice try trying the pass off the responsibility of verifying your sources on us, but that is not how it works in the grown up world. If you want to make a claim, do your own work.

And, OK, I'll find you source in a few minutes that Lincoln did not "order" the deaths of the Indians and pardoned the great majority of them.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 11:13 AM   #54

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OK, here is a source...

Lincoln and the Sioux Uprising of 1862 (Book Review)
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Old March 4th, 2014, 11:34 AM   #55
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Sorry, out here sourcing "several" (less than half) is not how it works, source them all. The issue of dates is going to be critical because the response will be that Linocln's views on race changed over time. Nice try trying the pass off the responsibility of verifying your sources on us, but that is not how it works in the grown up world. If you want to make a claim, do your own work.

And, OK, I'll find you source in a few minutes that Lincoln did not "order" the deaths of the Indians and pardoned the great majority of them.
ah ye olde "but but but he channnnnnged" gambit. I might have expected it. I'm sure you have sources for this sudden change....quotes. Do provide them. That's how it works in the adult world.


“I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races. I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people. And I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. … And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.” – Abraham Lincoln in his fourth debate with Stephen Douglas in the campaign for the United States Senate on September 18th of 1858.


“I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes.” – Abraham Lincoln in the fourth debate with Stephen Douglas.


“Negro equality! Fudge! How long, in the government of a god, great enough to make and maintain this universe, shall there continue to be knaves to vend, and fools to gulp, so low a piece of demagogue-ism as this?” – Abraham Lincoln in notes for speeches in September of 1859.

Literally the second source down on a google search of "lincoln quotes on race".

I can only conclude you have done very little reading on the subject at hand or you are being disingenuous.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 12:06 PM   #56

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ah ye olde "but but but he channnnnnged" gambit. I might have expected it. I'm sure you have sources for this sudden change....quotes. Do provide them. That's how it works in the adult world.
I'm sorry, i don't understand what it is you are asking me to provide sources for. I already gave you one that supports every claim I've made. Please be more clear about what you want.

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I can only conclude you have done very little reading on the subject at hand or you are being disingenuous.
Very wrong. If read the many other threads on Lincoln on the forum you'll see I've covered most of these topics several times over, as many others here on the forum have. (and they are going to demand you source your quotes, too).

And if you think I'm being disingenuous about making you source your claims, do not go to to college to study history. You won't believe how disingenuous professional historians are.

And that's a lot better, now we can see what years they come from.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 12:07 PM   #57

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(and they are going to demand you source your quotes, too).
We most certainly are.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 12:18 PM   #58

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As for Lincoln's changing views on race, I quote Eric Foner, who wrote an entire book on the subject. This is from the preface of Foner's Fiery Trial.

Quote:
In approaching the subject of Lincoln's views and policies regarding slavery and race, we should first bear in mind that the hallmark of Lincoln's greatness was his capacity for growth. It is fruitless to identify a single quotation, speech, or letter as the real or quintessential Lincoln. At the time of his death, he occupied a very different position with regard to slavery and the place of blacks in American society than earlier in his life....

Lincoln's career was a process of moral and political education and deepening anti-slavery conviction.
The book is recommended if you actually want a balanced look at Lincoln's growth on the issues of slavery and blacks (which included sidesteps and backsteps) rather than just mindlessly spouting off Lost Cause cliches.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 12:19 PM   #59

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We most certainly are.
I need a more commanding avatar like yours. I can't get any respect with my picture of Antietam bridge.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 12:26 PM   #60
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Very wrong. If read the many other threads on Lincoln on the forum you'll see I've covered most of these topics several times over, as many others here on the forum have. (and they are going to demand you source your quotes, too).

And if you think I'm being disingenuous about making you source your claims, do not go to to college to study history. You won't believe how disingenuous professional historians are.

And that's a lot better, now we can see what years they come from.
I've been through these arguments many times on a variety of forums as well...in case you hadn't noticed by the quotes and sources I provided.

and....I have been to college to study history..one very close to you in fact...Jax is my hometown.
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