Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Ancient History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Ancient History Ancient History Forum - Greece, Rome, Carthage, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and all other civilizations of antiquity, to include Prehistory and Archaeology discussions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 20th, 2010, 01:32 AM   #31
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Jun 2009
From: Europe
Posts: 1,080
Re: The Hyksos -- historical reality or myth?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Satuf View Post
The afro ones? I guess?
AFAIK the kings of 25th Dyn (Kush), made no comment on the XV dyn. period. Could you come with facts please. The word Hyksos is unknown in Egyptian texts.
barlier is offline  
Remove Ads
Old January 20th, 2010, 09:09 AM   #32
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Jun 2009
From: Europe
Posts: 1,080
Re: The Hyksos -- historical reality or myth?


Quote:
Originally Posted by barlier View Post
In the Speos Artemidos, Queen Hatshepsut wrote she expulsed the Asians who ignored Ra.
If forgot to specify that in the same text (See BAR II, 303 http://www.etana.org/abzu/coretext.pl?RC=14897) Hatshepsut wrote : "foreigners* were in the midst of them." IMO "Asians" is here an insult toward Egyptians, who cannot possibly be foreigners.

*Breasted translated Smaw by Barbarians, Faulkner (CDME p.266) used Foreigners and travellers.
barlier is offline  
Old January 28th, 2010, 11:37 AM   #33

okamido's Avatar
knows what the bee knows
 
Joined: Jun 2009
From: land of Califia
Posts: 29,886
Blog Entries: 28
Re: The Hyksos -- historical reality or myth?


Sorry if I missed it in this thread, but what of the supposed Hyksos summer capital at Avaris, and the names of their kings found there?

Sakir-Har

Khyan 1620bce

Apophis 1580bce to 1540bce

Khamudi 1540bce to 1530 bce


Scarab bearing the name of Apophis, found at Avaris
Click the image to open in full size.
okamido is offline  
Old January 28th, 2010, 12:19 PM   #34
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Jun 2009
From: Europe
Posts: 1,080
Re: The Hyksos -- historical reality or myth?


Quote:
Originally Posted by okamido View Post
what of the supposed Hyksos summer capital at Avaris, and the names of their kings found there?
AFAIK Avaris in the Delta was the all seasons capital. You have listed 4 of the 6 the kings of the XVe dyn (the number varies from one egyptologist to the next). Their official title was heqa khasout (ie. ruler over hilled countries)which is also know as Hyksos. During the SIP in Egypt, all sovereigns (Kush, Thebes) were an heqa. As far as Egyptiens of the NK and the TIP are concerned, they never called a group of people : Hyksos.
barlier is offline  
Old January 28th, 2010, 12:24 PM   #35

okamido's Avatar
knows what the bee knows
 
Joined: Jun 2009
From: land of Califia
Posts: 29,886
Blog Entries: 28
Re: The Hyksos -- historical reality or myth?


Quote:
Originally Posted by barlier View Post
AFAIK Avaris in the Delta was the all seasons capital. You have listed the kings of the XVe dyn. Their official title was heqa khasout (ie. ruler over hilled countries)which is also know as Hyksos. During the SIP in Egypt, all sovereigns (Kush, Thebes) were an heqa. As far as Egyptiens of the NK and the TIP are concerned, they never called a group of people : Hyksos.

How much is known about them, and is it disputed as to whether or not they were Hyksos?
okamido is offline  
Old January 28th, 2010, 12:39 PM   #36
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Jun 2009
From: Europe
Posts: 1,080
Re: The Hyksos -- historical reality or myth?


Quote:
Originally Posted by okamido View Post
How much is known about them, and is it disputed as to whether or not they were Hyksos?
Very little. About the dispute see post #19 but above all start with #1 (Look in particular to #14 and #32 which are in relation with a text from queen Hatshepsut).
barlier is offline  
Old December 24th, 2017, 09:20 PM   #37

Wickerman's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Feb 2011
From: Kitchener. Ont.
Posts: 674

Quote:
Originally Posted by barlier View Post
AFAIK Avaris in the Delta was the all seasons capital. You have listed 4 of the 6 the kings of the XVe dyn (the number varies from one egyptologist to the next). Their official title was heqa khasout (ie. ruler over hilled countries)which is also know as Hyksos. During the SIP in Egypt, all sovereigns (Kush, Thebes) were an heqa. As far as Egyptiens of the NK and the TIP are concerned, they never called a group of people : Hyksos.
I realize Barlier is no longer part of this group, but some of the points raised in this thread may be significant.

True, the term "Hyksos" is not used in Egyptian texts. These kings did not include Heqa-Khaswt in their titulary, neither did contemporary Egyptian pharaohs refer to them by that name.
We have Josephus/Manetho to thank for the erroneous assumption that the term Hyksos refers to an entire people. It did not, and it is totally false. However, for our use it is a very convenient term to use.

The title Heqa-Khaswt does appear on several scarabs of these 'foreign' kings, but what does this term really mean?

If I assume the title "King of.......", you can rest assured I want you to know what I am king of, who am I ruler over.
"Ruler of Foreign Countries" tells the reader nothing, as a title it is next to useless, except that it informs the reader that I am a Ruler. But what am I ruler of; Canaan, Naharyn, Ashkelon? - why not tell the reader where I am ruler of?

If I am just the ruler of some unnamed expanse of wilderness, way over the horizon, then where is the prestige in saying that?
And, why do several kings all make the same claim?

I think we have missed the true meaning of this term, Heqa-Khaswt.

The "tripple-hill" determinative certainly reads "Khaswt", and depending on the context can mean; land or country, but it does not mean "foreign".
The determinative for "foreign" is the "throwstick", and no "throwstick" is used in this title.

There are many examples of the "tripple-hill" determinative used for lands within Egypt, typically lands, perhaps suburbs, of great cities. These lands are widely known, and obviously they are not foreign - and, no "throwstick" is used in those terms either.

So, the "tripple-hill" determinative (Khaswt), means either 'land' or 'country', but does not automatically assume a meaning of "foreign", unless the "throwstick" is used.

This being the case, the title these 'Hyksos' used merely advise that they are Rulers of Lands, but which lands?

Interestingly, Apopi, the ruler of Avaris, does not use the term, Heqa-Khaswt. Yet we commonly assume he was a 'Hyksos' king.
That said, he does adopt a similar title - Heqa-Het'waret. Which some of you may recognise as meaning, "Ruler of Avaris", which he is known to have been.

Scholars have known this for a long time, yet they do not seem to have recognised that if "Het'waret" refers to a defined place, then possibly "Khaswt" also refers to a definite place.
If that is true then the title Heqa-Khaswt must identify a specific place which may have been lost, or gone through a name-change, down the centuries.

Was there a place in Egypt called Khaswt?

Yes, this was the ancient name for Xois. The name of the 6th Nome of Lower Egypt, and its capital city was at one time Khaset/Khaswt.

Heqa-Khaswt must mean Ruler of Khaswt, the 6th Nome of Lower Egypt.
Wickerman is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Ancient History

Tags
hyksos, myth, reality



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Merlin -Historical man or Historical myth ? Kronos Speculative History 12 September 5th, 2015 06:46 PM
Were the Hyksos the Hebrews? Ahmose Ancient History 70 December 21st, 2009 01:52 AM
Ninja - Myth or Reality? Salah Asian History 41 December 9th, 2009 06:57 PM
There is no Godís Eye View of Reality coberst Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 8 February 5th, 2009 03:23 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.