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Old February 2nd, 2010, 05:14 AM   #11

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Re: What did the Ancient Israelis/Jews Look Like?


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Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Identical to the people we now call Palestinians. They are the original Jews who stayed in the Holy Land after the Temple's destruction and embraced Islam
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Originally Posted by Edratman View Post
I would say Nick is correct. There is no historical documentation that says the entire indigenous population were uprooted and replaced by another population. Many armies and many traders passed through the region in the past 3 thousand years, contributing to the gene pool, and that is difficult to factor in, but the predominate gene pool should be unchanged.
I believe that Biblical scholar and historian Niels Peter Lemche holds this position, and so too Shlomo Sand. The latter I did a post on here.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 05:49 AM   #12

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Re: What did the Ancient Israelis/Jews Look Like?


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Making an image was only forbade if it was to be used for worship.

Exodus 20:
4"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Yes, but ancient Israelis took this as far as never making images of any kind, for worship or otherwise. Hence the lack of self-representations, like we have for other ancient peoples.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 06:56 AM   #13

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Re: What did the Ancient Israelis/Jews Look Like?


Jews did not make images of people, but animals and plants were used in decoration, in windows and on walls and floors. On banners of the tribes. Never as worship targets.

Jews always lived in the land of Israel. There are families in Zfat, Tiberias, Jerusalem that go back to the times of the Romans. Palestinians have nothing to do with it.

There are people who have an agenda of delegitimizing the Jewish people, but it doesn't matter what they invent, or how many times it is repeated: it will not become truth.

There are genetic data that shows that Jewish people in many unconected places in diaspora share a gene pool and are of one people, traceable back to Israel. I have posted it before. Of course, those who WANT to think differently will not credit anything said or any proof to their own opinion.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 07:06 AM   #14

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Re: What did the Ancient Israelis/Jews Look Like?


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Jews always lived in the land of Israel. There are families in Zfat, Tiberias, Jerusalem that go back to the times of the Romans. Palestinians have nothing to do with it.

There are people who have an agenda of delegitimizing the Jewish people, but it doesn't matter what they invent, or how many times it is repeated: it will not become truth.

There are genetic data that shows that Jewish people in many unconected places in diaspora share a gene pool and are of one people, traceable back to Israel. I have posted it before. Of course, those who WANT to think differently will not credit anything said or any proof to their own opinion.
I don't necessarily believe. Just find the topic an interesting point of discussion as I hear markedly different views on the Jews: whether they are a unified people or not, in terms of ethnicity. Have you got any links to the genetic data you mention vera? I am genuinely interested.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 07:07 AM   #15

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Re: What did the Ancient Israelis/Jews Look Like?


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There are genetic data that shows that Jewish people in many unconected places in diaspora share a gene pool and are of one people, traceable back to Israel. I have posted it before. Of course, those who WANT to think differently will not credit anything said or any proof to their own opinion.
Genetic data is ultimately, a limited concept when applied historically.
Say I am an african and you are an european. You start a religion that my people start believing in and then we intermarry. Our descendant would have both my and your gene and our descendants can claim that the 'race of people who founded this religion had both african and european genes!'.
You see what i am saying ?

For example, as far as genetics go, there is some categoric evidence that Palestinians and Sephardic jews are very closely related.
But the picture is complicated by the Ashkenazni jews- who's history is clouded.
I find that most Jewish literature today completely denies the fact that the Khazars were an Indo-European people who converted to Judaism and thus contributed to the gene-pool of the European(Ashkenazi) jews significantly- maybe even more than the Sephardic jews did despite their many immigrations. Consider the change in demographics of Judaism in the recent century. As late as 1910s, Ashkenazis made up roughly 15% of declared Jews and Sephardims made up over 70% of declared jews. Today, Sephardim make up less than 5% of jews and Ashkenazis make up over 90% of Jews.
This demographic shift would have significant impact on any DNA correlation discerned today.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 07:08 AM   #16

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Re: What did the Ancient Israelis/Jews Look Like?


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Jews always lived in the land of Israel. There are families in Zfat, Tiberias, Jerusalem that go back to the times of the Romans. Palestinians have nothing to do with it.
You mean: always lived in Israel after Israelites wiped out the Canaanites. Palestinians are a semetic people.

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There are genetic data that shows that Jewish people in many unconected places in diaspora share a gene pool and are of one people, traceable back to Israel.
Cool. Does this show what they looked like?
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 07:11 AM   #17

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Re: What did the Ancient Israelis/Jews Look Like?


Time magazine came up with this composite.
I know it's not what you had in mind but there there seems to be an idea here that goes beyond its original whimsy.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 07:48 AM   #18

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Re: What did the Ancient Israelis/Jews Look Like?


Quote:
Originally Posted by vera View Post
Jews did not make images of people, but animals and plants were used in decoration, in windows and on walls and floors. On banners of the tribes. Never as worship targets.

Jews always lived in the land of Israel. There are families in Zfat, Tiberias, Jerusalem that go back to the times of the Romans. Palestinians have nothing to do with it.

There are people who have an agenda of delegitimizing the Jewish people, but it doesn't matter what they invent, or how many times it is repeated: it will not become truth.

There are genetic data that shows that Jewish people in many unconected places in diaspora share a gene pool and are of one people, traceable back to Israel. I have posted it before. Of course, those who WANT to think differently will not credit anything said or any proof to their own opinion.
Well said, vera.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 07:51 AM   #19

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Re: What did the Ancient Israelis/Jews Look Like?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_of_Gauda View Post
Genetic data is ultimately, a limited concept when applied historically.
Say I am an african and you are an european. You start a religion that my people start believing in and then we intermarry. Our descendant would have both my and your gene and our descendants can claim that the 'race of people who founded this religion had both african and european genes!'.
You see what i am saying ?

For example, as far as genetics go, there is some categoric evidence that Palestinians and Sephardic jews are very closely related.
But the picture is complicated by the Ashkenazni jews- who's history is clouded.
I find that most Jewish literature today completely denies the fact that the Khazars were an Indo-European people who converted to Judaism and thus contributed to the gene-pool of the European(Ashkenazi) jews significantly- maybe even more than the Sephardic jews did despite their many immigrations. Consider the change in demographics of Judaism in the recent century. As late as 1910s, Ashkenazis made up roughly 15% of declared Jews and Sephardims made up over 70% of declared jews. Today, Sephardim make up less than 5% of jews and Ashkenazis make up over 90% of Jews.
This demographic shift would have significant impact on any DNA correlation discerned today.
The Khazars (or at least their nobility) were merely Turks who superficially converted to Judaism - which must have happened through the influence of the Jews already living in the area. There is no reason to believe that they are ancestral to any significant amount of today's Jewish population.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 08:14 AM   #20

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Re: What did the Ancient Israelis/Jews Look Like?


Quote:
The Khazars (or at least their nobility) were merely Turks who superficially converted to Judaism - which must have happened through the influence of the Jews already living in the area. There is no reason to believe that they are ancestral to any significant amount of today's Jewish population.
Quote:
Within the world's Jewish population there are distinct ethnic divisions, most of which are primarily the result of geographic branching from an originating Israelite population, and subsequent independent evolutions. An array of Jewish communities were established by Jewish settlers in various places around the Old World, often at great distances from one another resulting in effective and often long-term isolation from each other. During the millennia of the Jewish diaspora the communities would develop under the influence of their local environments; political, cultural, natural, and populational. Today, manifestation of these differences among the Jews can be observed in Jewish cultural expressions of each community, including Jewish linguistic diversity, culinary preferences, liturgical practices, religious interpretations, as well as degrees and sources of genetic admixture.[29]
Jews are often identified as belonging to one of two major groups: the Ashkenazim, or "Germanics" (Ashkenaz meaning "Germany" in Medieval Hebrew, denoting their Central European base), and the Sephardim, or "Hispanics" (Sefarad meaning "Spain/Hispania" or "Iberia" in Hebrew, denoting their Spanish, and Portuguese, base). The Mizrahim, or "Easterners" (Mizrach being "East" in Hebrew), that is, the diverse collection of Middle Eastern and North African Jews, constitute a third major group, although they are sometimes termed Sephardi for liturgical reasons.[30]
Smaller groups include, but are not restricted to, Indian Jews such as the Bene Israel, Bnei Menashe, Cochin Jews, and Bene Ephraim; the Romaniotes of Greece; the Italian Jews ("Italkim" or "Bené Roma"); the Teimanim from Yemen and Oman; various African Jews, including most numerously the Beta Israel of Ethiopia; and Chinese Jews, most notably the Kaifeng Jews, as well as various other distinct but now almost extinct communities.[31]
The divisions between all these groups are approximate and their boundaries are not always clear. The Mizrahim for example, are a heterogeneous collection of North African, Central Asian, Caucasian, and Middle Eastern Jewish communities that are often as unrelated to each other as they are to any of the earlier mentioned Jewish groups. In modern usage, however, the Mizrahim are sometimes termed Sephardi due to similar styles of liturgy, despite independent development from Sephardim proper. Thus, among Mizrahim there are Iraqi Jews, Egyptian Jews, Berber Jews, Lebanese Jews, Kurdish Jews, Libyan Jews, Syrian Jews, Bukharian Jews, Mountain Jews, Georgian Jews, and various others. The Teimanim from Yemen and Oman are sometimes included, although their style of liturgy is unique and they differ in respect to the admixture found among them to that found in Mizrahim. In addition, there is a differentiation made between Sephardi migrants who established themselves in the Middle East and North Africa after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain and Portugal in the 1490s and the pre-existing Jewish communities in those regions.[31]
Despite this diversity, Ashkenazi Jews represent the bulk of modern Jewry, with at least 70% of Jews worldwide (and up to 90% prior to World War II and the Holocaust). As a result of their emigration from Europe, Ashkenazim also represent the overwhelming majority of Jews in the New World continents, in countries such as the United States, Canada, Argentina, Australia, and Brazil. In France, emigration of Mizrahim from North Africa has led them to outnumber the Ashkenazim and Sephardim.[32] Only in Israel is the Jewish population representative of all groups, a melting pot independent of each group's proportion within the overall world Jewish population.[33]
Source:
Jew Jew
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