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View Poll Results: Was there a "Decline & Fall" of the Classical Historian in the 4th century?
NO 6 46.15%
YES 7 53.85%
OTHER 0 0%
Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 5th, 2017, 02:33 AM   #111

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Originally Posted by Kookaburra Jack View Post

(...)

There is no comparison.

That has already been addressed and all this can be boiled down to that fact that you don’t have any modern scholarships to support your narrative, and that you would be banned from the university with your approach where you are quoting scholarship you have not read and distorted their conclusion to serve a personal neo-atheistic agenda.

Pagan temples are not libraries, and scrolls connected to them would be works of magics, astrology, pagan chants and pagan religion. It would rather be such works that would be destroyed rather than secular and scientific works such of Herodotus, Plutarch, Euclid, Galen or Ptolemy as they would be preserved. Dirk Rohmann, in which you provided his scholarship without having read it, states also so. Not even surprising that the another scholar Paul Freedman stated that the learning continued after Constantine and that the monks played a huge role during the Carolingian Renaissance with reviving of the classical literature and texts.

Pagan persecution had long lasting impact on both Christianity and Paganism and was not just a little small lightly persecution. Because if you had pulled yourself together and actually read that work of Dirk Rohmann you provided without having read it, you would realize that the Christians began to reason why the Pagans persecuted them and whether Pagans’ religion and their mocking of Christianity contributed to persecution.

The work of Dirk Rohmann you provided without having read it, is not supporting your narrative as he states that “As a cultural practice, book-burning was known and performed throughout Antiquity…” and that “the concept of censorship was already known to Plato…”, and later in page 242 is stating that ”Augustus himself had canonized the Sibylline books by burning more than two thousand prophetic writings that were anonymously circulating in order to avoid unwanted prophesies about his reign from circulation.” – Already with the description of the book you provided it was stated that it was ”texts and ideas from materialistic philosophical traditions that ”were vulnerable to destruction, censorship or suppression”

Paul Freedman’s words that ancient legacy continued after Constantine and that the church played a pivotal role in restoring ancient legacy:

From 2:37:



”In this case however, we have a program of reviving Latin, reviving the classical literature and texts, teaching these subjects. And all of this not in aid of what we would call a purely educational program, but to help the state and to help its mission which as we have just said is both a Christian and a Roman one. The revival of letters was intended then to restore and deepen the piety of the population, the understanding of Christianity, the restoration of the church as an intellectual force, the preservation of learning from both Roman secular and religious texts. So that Charlemagne’s cultural program is the culmination of a longer period of trying to save something from the wreckage of classical civilization. And thus as a Christian ruler and as a Roman emperor, Charlemagne surrounded himself with these and other intellectuals, monks and scholars.

(…)

…so I want to start out with the preservation of learning up to the point that Charlemagne really starts putting together this program around 780 AD. You will remember, and you will have seen from Augustine’s “Confessions” among other things, that the ideal of Roman culture at the time of the empire was cultivated leisure on part of wealthy, well-educated lay people. That is to say, even after Constantine’s conversion, the intellectuals of the empire tended to be not clergy, but wealthy people who could afford the leisure, the time, and the expense of procuring books and discussing them, these were the people who represented the continuation of the literacy and philosophical traditions of classical Greece and Rome.“




You in contrary have zero modern scholarship to support your narrative. You have only an outdated work of Gibbon from 1700’s which are no longer used as introduction anymore for the students of history. Then you have a work made for over 50 years ago and even based on Gibbon’s work. In desperation you provided Dirk Rohmann’s work without having read it just because you read the title, the year of publication and thought I did not have access to that book. Which resulted into backfire and embarrassment as it turned out he contradicts you.

It is safe to say that your neo-atheistic agenda mixed with your reliance of some outdated works such of Gibbon, combined with your disdain for modern scholarships are preventing you from progressing.

Last edited by El Cid; January 5th, 2017 at 02:36 AM.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 04:26 AM   #112

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That has already been addressed and all this can be boiled down to that fact that you don’t have any modern scholarships to support your narrative,
I have the modern scholarship, but you reject it. I have told you this is your mistake. Why don't you ask your professors what they think of Arnaldo Momigliano upon whom I have relied upon in support of various issues? You've obviously not read any of his books, and yet you are quite prepared to throw him into the trashcan of pre 1960's scholarship.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 06:49 AM   #113

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FWIW--this The Mysterious Fate of the Great Library of Alexandria was a link in another thread to the burning of the Great Library. Don't recall if Jack or his interlocutors have hitherto posted it in this thread
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Old January 12th, 2017, 11:40 PM   #114

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There was a decline and fall of academia in general in the 4th century. This was the period of crisis, civil war, and division in the empire. Trade volumes plummeted. The old rome was over.
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Old January 13th, 2017, 09:47 AM   #115

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I think you have misunderstood the question of the thread starter.

No one is rejecting that Roman Empire started to decline after the rule of Marcus Aurelius over 100 years before Constantine the Great. Various “barbarian“ tribes in Germany adopted better organization and weaponry and started to raid Roman cities. The weak Parthian Empire was replaced by the more vigorous Sassanid Empire which began to attack Roman Empire in a way not seeing prior. Now facing problems in both Danube and Euphrates the Roman Empire was too big to be ruled by a single person which caused problem with successions of emperors. All these factors contributed to economic decline and inflation. All these problems started over 100 years before Constantine the Great.

No one is denying that infrastructures and institutions started to decline 100 years before Constantine the Great.

The question of the thread starter was whether the Christians invented a history-practice of lying, forging tales with censorships as he thinks the Pagans had an outstanding ability of being “impartiality” without lying, without forging tales, and not having censorships. Which of course is utterly rubbish without academic foundation just as demonstrated with his own source of Dirk Rohmann underlined with yellow letters in my first post in this page.

Last edited by El Cid; January 13th, 2017 at 09:51 AM.
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Old January 13th, 2017, 10:16 AM   #116

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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
I think you have misunderstood the question of the thread starter.

No one is rejecting that Roman Empire started to decline after the rule of Marcus Aurelius over 100 years before Constantine the Great. Various “barbarian“ tribes in Germany adopted better organization and weaponry and started to raid Roman cities. The weak Parthian Empire was replaced by the more vigorous Sassanid Empire which began to attack Roman Empire in a way not seeing prior. Now facing problems in both Danube and Euphrates the Roman Empire was too big to be ruled by a single person which caused problem with successions of emperors. All these factors contributed to economic decline and inflation. All these problems started over 100 years before Constantine the Great.

No one is denying that infrastructures and institutions started to decline 100 years before Constantine the Great.

The question of the thread starter was whether the Christians invented a history-practice of lying, forging tales with censorships as he thinks the Pagans had an outstanding ability of being “impartiality” without lying, without forging tales, and not having censorships. Which of course is utterly rubbish without academic foundation just as demonstrated with his own source of Dirk Rohmann underlined with yellow letters in my first post in this page.
Yes absolutely, but that's because all history drifts into myth when things go south. My point, perhaps expressed a bit too concisely, is that when the empire is racked by a lack of trade and civil war, all standards - including academic - will decrease. History is filled with glittering accounts like the Alexiad in empires during their peak or resurgence that dissipate into lying, fabricated, delusional, and unprofessional accounts towards their last years. The glory days of a nation's historical work correspond to the years of economic and military prosperity.
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