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View Poll Results: Was there a "Decline & Fall" of the Classical Historian in the 4th century?
NO 6 46.15%
YES 7 53.85%
OTHER 0 0%
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Old December 16th, 2016, 06:08 PM   #51

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El Cid you continue to plaster these two articles about the fate of the library of Alexandria into practically every single thread. You either missed or ignored my comment about these two articles. Both of these authors do not separately evaluate the integrity of, on the one hand the pagan historians and on the other hand the ecclesiastical historians. Moreover they do not doubt the integrity of the ecclesiastical sources but rather accept these at face value.

They do not make a consistent study and review of the other long list of the proscriptions made by Theodosius against the pagan communities in Alexandria during his rule.

So what I suggest to you is that if you wish to ceaselessly ramble on about the fact that Edward Gibbon is guilty of misleading the whole world about the ultimate fate of the library of Alexandria, then you start a discussion thread with an appropriate subject line and confine your monologues to where they belong.


You yourself have not made any comment concerning the invention of ecclesiastical history in the 4th century as a new form of history that clearly competed with the traditional form of [classical] political history writing.

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Old December 17th, 2016, 01:21 PM   #52

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This is because you have deleted a large chunk of my post when you quote me and thus are missing the context. – As usual.

I have clearly addressed it unlike you:

The practice of making history did not go into decline and just because a stupid Briton in the 18th century suggested it once, doesn’t mean that the vast historians agree with it.

As I have written for some days ago:
“Philosophy continued throughout Late Antique and Middle Ages. The vast majority of the classical philosophy are available to us thanks to the effort of Christian monasteries and Byzantine library where they studied and copied classical texts. By doing it, they preserved the vast cultural legacy for the posterity. Philosophy blossomed as well and as already mentioned Augustine, Isadore of Sevilla, Alcuin and Aquinas all discussed Plato/Aristotle.
Classical history continued throughout Late Antique and Middle Ages. The works of Hesiod, Herodotus, Thucydedes, Diodoros, Plutarch, Ovid and Sallust are available to us today because they were studied and recopied throughout Middle Ages by Christian monasteries and Byzantine libraries until Guttenberg’s invention in late Middle Ages saved them for the eternity. And when history works were made in Middle Ages they tried to imitated and use the narrative techniques of Tacitus or Thycydedes.”


“Impartiality” was just as much normal for the Pagans as it was for the Christians. That the Christians tried to interpret aspects in correspond with their value is nothing news indeed and one is truly an idiot if one thinks that the Pagans did not do it. Herodotus’ and Aristotle’s portrait of the Persians are for instance dubious and contradicted by the archaeology today, and when Sappho tried to interpret the Iliad she downplayed the role of the men and instead praised and emphasized the feminine virtues of female characters such of Helena.

The notion of a “decline and fall” is a Gibbon buzzword, and his fabrication of a supposedly destruction of classical works are outdated Gibbonic teaching from the 18th century not worth to repeat apart to exhibit ones own ignorance. Like for instance the burning library of Alexandria is indeed a myth caused in the Edward Gibbon’s gibberish mind where he misinterpreted the sources so dismal:

Armarium Magnum: "Agora" and Hypatia - Hollywood Strikes Again

The Mysterious Fate of the Great Library of Alexandria

Though some may have their limited knowledge of history from references from the obsolete works of some Edward Gibberish works - and this is really a small gain as his works are outdated and rejected today for obvious reasons - we are still the disciples of critical minds and children of von Ranke: we learn our history from modern scholars in the 21th century instead of relying on outdated works from 1700's and perpetuate myths.


So your rambling that the Christians destroyed ancient legacy and burned libraries are utterly false.

And regarding your assumption that the Pagans did not forge tales, persecuted or lied I can very easy debunk it:

Anaxagoras was sentenced to death because he made some statements about the sun and the moon that offended the Pagans. Socrates was sentenced to death because by questioning the Athenians and their morale the Athenians felt that Socrates was questioning their values and thus felt the gods may punish them, in which resulted into a justice murdering of Socrates. From Demosthenes speeches we have examples of forged allegations against Neaera of being illegal and non-Athenian and thus offended the gods when she was giving in ritual marriage to the god Dionysus, but the real target was to hit her husband, Stephanus. Pagan Roman Emperor Augustus burned some hundreds prophetic books he did not like, and ordered Ovid’s Aeneid works to be used as propaganda where he dismantled the Roman Republic in secret while claiming he was restoring it. And we have the famous case of Verres where Cicero realized how corrupt the courts were when Paganism ruled. And not to mention the murdering of the Gracchus brothers. Or the Pagan persecution of the Christians as Pagan rulers saw it as a problem that they rejected their pagan goods and thus persecuted them because they thought it would mitigate the anger of goods.

So your Edward Gibberish assumption mixed with atheistic idiosyncrasy that the Pagans were sane rationale humans being that did not lie, forge tales or persecute, is utterly Gibberish crap without academic foundation. And as an atheist and as one who had Ancient Greece/Rome and Middle Ages at the university as student of history, I can easily refute your assumptions.




The scanty and suspicious materials of Edward Gibbon’s works seldom enable us to dispel the smelly cloud that hangs over a skull with a content of a Gibberish mind that forged myths with abysmal interpretations of sources such of the Burning Library of Alexandria and blamed it on the Christians in such a way that an eager Gibbon reader in the 1980's who once made a reality TV about astronomy trapped into it and exhibited his historic ignorance for the cameras. - But we are children of modern scholarships and not slaves of 1700’s works, and we students of history and historians do make lucid scrutinizing of Gibbon's works and his Gibberish mind, and none Gibbon worshippers should ever delude themselves to think that they have acquired historical knowledge just because they have read some works made in the 1700’s. – Reading Gibbon and thinking one is reading actual scholarships, is as much stupid as thinking one has read actual astronomy by reading Ptolemy’s “almagest”.

Last edited by El Cid; December 17th, 2016 at 01:31 PM.
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Old December 17th, 2016, 02:42 PM   #53

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Originally Posted by Kookaburra Jack View Post
The way I look at it is that the ecclesiastical histories have these four characteristic elements outlined above. The focus on the church and on these elements represent some sort of specialisation and inventive step on the "classical histories".

Eusebius was probably very well acquainted with all earlier histories, but his subject was political history only as it impinged upon the "universal church".
But the 'classical' historian was only interested in political history as it impinged on the Greek or Roman empires. There was a change in focus, but where is the indication that the method and style altered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kookaburra Jack View Post
The rise of the Christian State in the 4th century was rewarded with a trinity of ecclesiastical historians in the 5th century. What extant political histories they passed over to produce a history of the 4th century is anyone's guess.

This IMO represents a decline in "political reporting".
Perhaps you could consult Eunapius or Olympiodorus or Festus or Eutropius or Aurelius Victor. After them, look to Zosimus, Priscus, Malchus, pseudo-Joshua, Procopius, Jordanes, Gregory of Tours, Agathias, Menander, Theophylact Simocatta, etc, etc. These authors focused on the political history of their times or earlier. So well into the 7th Century, the classical 'style' survived (if you think style = subject matter).

Last edited by Moros; December 17th, 2016 at 02:54 PM.
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Old December 17th, 2016, 03:20 PM   #54

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Originally Posted by Kookaburra Jack View Post
It says the age of ancient atheism ended. That's a pretty simple statement and equates to loss of free speech under a military state.
Which started long before that military state became a Christian one. The Roman Empire made great efforts to regulate it's citizens' moral behaviour, and freedom of speech was often rewarded with execution or exile.
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Old December 19th, 2016, 09:15 PM   #55

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Originally Posted by Moros View Post
But the 'classical' historian was only interested in political history as it impinged on the Greek or Roman empires. There was a change in focus, but where is the indication that the method and style altered?
There was a change in focus when the Roman Empire became Christian in the 4th century. The 'classical historians' when writing political history thereafter had to ask themselves what method and style they would use when dealing with the Christian religion and the Christian Emperor. Ammianus stays well clear of the "plain and simple religion of the Christians".

OTOH Zosimus, according to WIKI "The historian's object was to account for the decline of the Roman Empire from the polytheistic point of view. Zosimus is the only non-Christian source for much of what he reports.

Zosimus does not favour Constantine. The obituary Ammianus wrote for Constantine is missing. We can only guess what it might have reported. He certainly did not favour Constantius. Julian does not favour Constantine, or his sons.


The church historians OTOH glorify the "Thrice Blessed" Constantine.

I find these two diametrically opposed reports fascinating.

Who do we believe? The academic paradigm, closely associated with the inside "specialists" in ecclesiastical history, has traditionally followed the histories of the church on key elements, where they diverge from Zosimus' and Julian's invectives against Constantine.


Quote:
Perhaps you could consult Eunapius or Olympiodorus or Festus or Eutropius or Aurelius Victor. After them, look to Zosimus, Priscus, Malchus, pseudo-Joshua, Procopius, Jordanes, Gregory of Tours, Agathias, Menander, Theophylact Simocatta, etc, etc. These authors focused on the political history of their times or earlier. So well into the 7th Century, the classical 'style' survived (if you think style = subject matter).

Thanks for the useful list. I have spent some time looking at these and others and have copied a summary and brief detail list below.

My original comment about a decline in "political reporting" was reserved for the 4th century, specifically between 312-353 CE. Aside from some brief reports from the pagans, the epoch prior to the commencement of Ammianus' history appears to me to be represented exclusively by ecclesiastical histories.

These (4) Christian sources passed over the political history of the reception of the Bible and the Christian State in the Roman Empire. I have not included these ecclesiastical historians (Eusebius, Socrates, Sozomenus and Theodoretus) in the following.


Historians of the 4th-7th centuries


**** 4th century

Praxagoras of Athens (fl. early fourth century)
Festus (fl. 4th century CE)
Eutropius (fl. later 4th century CE)
Sextus Aurelius Victor (c. 320 – c. 390 CE)
Eutropius (fl. later fourth century)
Ammianus Marcellinus (c. 325–330 died c. 391–400)

**** 5th century

Eunapius (fl. 4th–5th century)
Olympiodorus ( fl.c. 412–425 CE)
Zosimus (fl. 490s–510s CE)
Priscus (fl. 5th century CE)
Malchus (fl. 5th century CE)

**** 6th century
pseudo-Joshua (fl. 6th century)
Procopius (c. 500 – c. 554 CE)
Jordanes (fl. 6th century)
Gregory of Tours (c.538 – 594 CE)
Agathias (530 – 582/594 CE)
Menander (fl. 6th century)

**** 7th century
Theophylact Simocatta (fl. 7th century)


************************************************** ***
DETAIL

**** 4th century
Praxagoras of Athens (fl. early fourth century)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxagoras_of_Athens
wrote three historical works, which are all lost: a history of the Kings of Athens,
a history of Alexander the Great, and a panegyric biography of the emperor Constantine.
A few fragments of the biography of Constantine are preserved in the Bibliotheca of Photius (cod. 62).

Festus (fl. 4th century CE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festus_(historian)
also known as Rufus Festus, Ruffus Festus, Sextus Festus, Sextus Rufus, and Sextus, was a Late Roman historian and proconsul of Africa whose epitome Breviarium rerum gestarum populi Romani ("Summary of the history of Rome"[1]) was commissioned by the emperor Valens in preparation for his war against Persia. It was completed about AD 379. The Breviarium covers the entire history of the Roman state from the foundation of the City until AD 369. The book consists of 30 small parts treating events in Roman history in terse overview, mainly focused on military and political conflicts. It is estimated as a work of very low quality

Eutropius (fl. later 4th century CE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutropius_(historian)
held the office of secretary (magister memoriae) at Constantinople, accompanied the Emperor Julian (361–363) on his expedition against the Persians (363), and was alive during the reign of Valens (364–378), to whom he dedicates his Breviarium historiae Romanae and where his history ends. The Breviarium historiae Romanae is a complete compendium, in ten books, of Roman history from the foundation of the city to the accession of Valens. It was compiled with considerable care from the best accessible authorities, and is written generally with impartiality, and in a clear and simple style. Although the Latin in some instances differs from that of the purest models, the work was for a long time a favorite elementary school-book. Its independent value is small, but it sometimes fills a gap left by the more authoritative records

Sextus Aurelius Victor (c. 320 – c. 390 CE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurelius_Victor
De Caesaribus - from Augustus to Constantius II. The work was published in 361.


Eutropius (fl. later fourth century)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutropius_(historian)
Breviarium historiae Romanae - a complete compendium, in ten books,
of Roman history from the foundation of Rome to the accession of Valens.


Sulpicius Alexander (fl. late fourth century)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulpicius_Alexander
Roman historian of Germanic tribes. His work is lost, but quoted by Gregory of Tours.
It was perhaps a continuation of the Res gestae by Ammianus Marcellinus (which ended in 378 AD)
and dealt with events at least until the death of Valentinian II (392 AD).


Ammianus Marcellinus (c. 325–330 died c. 391–400)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammianus_Marcellinus
Wrote the penultimate major historical account surviving from Antiquity (preceding Procopius). His work, known as the Res Gestae, chronicled in Latin the history of Rome from the accession of the emperor Nerva in 96 to the death of Valens at the Battle of Adrianople in 378, although only the sections covering the period 353–378 survive.



**** 5th century

Eunapius (fl. 4th–5th century)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunapius
Greek sophist/historian - principal surviving work
is "the Lives of Philosophers and Sophists"

Olympiodorus ( fl.c. 412–425 CE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympiodorus_of_Thebes
an historical writer of classical education, a "poet by profession" as he says of himself, who was born at Thebes in Egypt, and was sent on a mission to the Huns on the Black Sea by Emperor Honorius about 412, and later lived at the court of Theodosius II, to whom his History was dedicated. The record of his diplomatic mission survives in a fragment among the forty-six in the epitome by the patriarch Photius, who considered Olympiodorus a "pagan", doubtless for his classical education. An author of a history in twenty-two books of the Western Empire from 407 to 425, which was used by Zosimus and Sozomen and probably Philostorgius, as J.F. Matthews has demonstrated.[2] The original is lost, but an abstract is given by Photius.


Zosimus (fl. 490s–510s CE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zosimus
Zosimus' Historia Nova (Ἱστορία Νέα, "New History") is written in Greek in six books. For the period from 238 to 270, he apparently uses Dexippus; for the period from 270 to 404, Eunapius; and after 407, Olympiodorus... The historian's object was to account for the decline of the Roman Empire from the polytheistic point of view. Zosimus is the only non-Christian source for much of what he reports. There are no doubt numerous errors of judgment to be found in the work, and sometimes (especially in the case of Constantine) an intemperate expression of opinion, which somewhat exaggerates, if it does not distort the truth. It is not to be wondered at that one who held to the old faith should attribute the downfall of the Roman Empire in great part to the religious innovations attendant upon the spread of Christianity.

Priscus (fl. 5th century CE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscus
Priscus was the author of an eight-volume historical work, written in Greek, entitled the History of Byzantium (Greek: Ἱστορία Βυζαντιακή), which was probably not the original title name.[1][2] The History probably covered the period from the accession of Attila the Hun to the accession of Emperor Zeno (r. 474–475), or from 433 up until 474 AD.[2] Priscus's work currently survives in fragments and was very influential in the Byzantine Empire.[1] The History was used in the Excerpta de Legationibus of Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (r. 913–959), as well as by authors such as Evagrius Scholasticus, Cassiodorus, Jordanes, and the author of the Souda.[1] Priscus's writing style is straightforward and his work is regarded as a reliable contemporary account of Attila the Hun, his court, and the reception of the Roman ambassadors.[2] He is considered a "classicizing" historian to the extent that his work, though written during the Christian era, is almost completely secular and relies on a style and word-choice that are part of an historiographical tradition dating back to the fifth century BC



Malchus (fl. 5th century CE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malchus_(historian)
According to Suda, he wrote a history extending from the reign of Constantine I to that of Anastasius I; but the work in seven books, of which Photius has given an account (Bibl. cod. 78), and to which he gives the title Βυζαντιακά, comprehended only the period from the final sickness of the Eastern emperor Leo I (473 or 474), to the death of Julius Nepos, emperor of the West (480). It has been supposed that this was an extract from the work mentioned by Suidas, or a mutilated copy: that it was incomplete is said by Photius himself, who says that the start of the first of the seven books showed that the author had already written some previous parts, and that the close of the seventh book showed his intention of carrying it further, if his life was spared. Photius praises the style of Malchus as a model of historical composition; pure, free from redundancy and consisting of well-selected words and phrases. He notices also his eminence as a rhetorician, and says that he was favourable to Christianity; a statement which has been thought inconsistent with the praises for Pamprepius. The works of Malchus are lost, except the portions contained in the Excerpta of Constantine VII, and some extracts in Suda.

**** 6th century
pseudo-Joshua (fl. 6th century)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_the_Stylite
The Chronicle of Pseudo-Joshua the Stylite - Syriac text written, in all probability, by an inhabitant of Edessa almost immediately after the conclusion of the war between Rome and Persia in 502 6506 AD. Although that conflict is treated in other ancient texts, none of them can match "Joshua" in his wealth of detail, his familiarity with the region where the hostilities occurred, and his proximity in time to the events. The Chronicle also vividly describes the famine and plague that swept through Edessa in the years immediately before the war. The work is a document of great importance for both the social and military history of late antiquity, remarkable for the information it provides on Roman and Persian empires alike.

Procopius (c. 500 – c. 554 CE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procopius
Procopius of Caesarea (Greek: Προκόπιος ὁ Καισαρεύς, Latin: Procopius Caesariensis; c. 500 – c. 554 AD) was a prominent late antique scholar from Palaestina Prima.[1] Accompanying the Roman general Belisarius in the wars of the Emperor Justinian, he became the principal historian of the 6th century, writing the Wars (or Histories), the Buildings of Justinian and the celebrated (and infamous) Secret History. He is commonly held to be the last major historian of the ancient Western world.

Jordanes (fl. 6th century)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes
6th-century Roman bureaucrat,[3] who turned his hand to history later in life. While he also wrote Romana about the history of Rome, his best-known work is his Getica, written in Constantinople [4] about AD 551.[5] It is the only extant ancient work dealing with the early history of the Goths.


Gregory of Tours (c.538 – 594 CE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Tours
Saint Gregory of Tours (30 November c. 538 – 17 November 594) was a Gallo-Roman historian and Bishop of Tours, which made him a leading prelate of Gaul. He was born Georgius Florentius, later adding the name Gregorius in honour of his maternal great-grandfather.[2] He is the main contemporary source for Merovingian history. His most notable work was his Decem Libri Historiarum or Ten Books of Histories, better known as the Historia Francorum ("History of the Franks"), a title given to it by later chroniclers, but he is also known for his accounts of the miracles of saints, especially four books of the miracles of Martin of Tours. St Martin's tomb was a major draw in the 6th century, and Gregory's writings had the practical aspect of promoting this highly organized devotion.

Agathias (530 – 582/594 CE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathias
This work in five books, On the Reign of Justinian, continues the history of Procopius, whose style it imitates, and is the chief authority for the period 552–558. It deals chiefly with the struggles of the Imperial army, under the command of general Narses, against the Goths, Vandals, Franks and Persians

Menander (fl. 6th century)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander_Protector
continued the history of Agathias, covering the period from 558 to 582. Menander took as his model Agathias who like him had been a jurist, and his history begins at the point where Agathias leaves off. It embraces the period from the arrival of the Kutrigurs in Thrace during the reign of Justinian in 558 down to the death of the emperor Tiberius in 582. Considerable fragments of the work are preserved in the Excerpts of Constantine Porphyrogenitus and in the Suda. Although the style is sometimes bombastic, he is considered trustworthy and is one of the most valuable authorities for the history of the 6th century, especially on geographical and ethnographical matters. Menander was an eye-witness of some of the events he describes. Like Agathias, he wrote epigrams

**** 7th century
Theophylact Simocatta (fl. 7th century)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophylact_Simocatta
Byzantine historiographer, arguably ranking as the last historian of Late Antiquity, writing in the time of Heraclius (c. 630) about the late Emperor Maurice (582–602). history in eight books, for which period he is the best and oldest authority.

Last edited by Kookaburra Jack; December 19th, 2016 at 09:28 PM.
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Old December 19th, 2016, 09:45 PM   #56

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re: the age of ancient atheism ended


Quote:
Originally Posted by Moros View Post
Which started long before that military state became a Christian one. The Roman Empire made great efforts to regulate it's citizens' moral behaviour, and freedom of speech was often rewarded with execution or exile.
Prior to the Christian State it's true that citizens were executed or exiled by Roman Emperors. But when did this involve large numbers or entire communities? (Other than the Jews being expelled here and there). We have discussed Ammianus' report of the torture and execution of "numbers without end" at Skythopolis. In Julian's letters are reports about communities being butchered.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lette...lian/Letter_41
I thought that the leaders of the Galilaeans would be more grateful to me than to my predecessor in the administration of the Empire. For in his reign it happened to the majority of them to be sent into exile, prosecuted, and cast into prison, and moreover, many whole communities of those who are called "heretics"[2] were actually butchered, as at Samosata and Cyzicus, in Paphlagonia, Bithynia, and Galatia, and among many other tribes also villages were sacked and completely devastated.
The Christian State was arguably far more systematically persecutory and intolerant (of large numbers of people, and communities) than the prior Roman Empire -- if the events described in Ammianus and Julian can be relied upon.


Do you think the age of ancient atheism ended in the 4th century as claimed by that author (above)?
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Old December 20th, 2016, 09:23 AM   #57

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The Bacchanals, the Druids, the Manicheans, the Jews and the Christians would disagree with Gibbon’s fanboys that they were not persecuted and genocided under the Pagan Romans’ rule.

I as an atheist and student of history at the university had ancient Rome as part of my curriculum, so let’s see what modern scholarships say about it:

Rome in the Ancient World: From Romulus to Justinian by David Potter, from page 273:

“On February 24, 303, Diocletian introduced a further strain into the relationship between east and west. On that day that he posted an Edict at Nicomedia ordering all Christians to sacrifice to the traditional gods; their communal property was seized, and those who refused to recant faced the loss of civil rights and even capital punishment(…). Up until this edict – more than forty years after Gallienus had ended the persecution instituted by his father Valerian…(…)”

And

World Societies, The World of Rome, page 170-172:

“At first, most Roman officials largely ignored the followers of Jesus, viewing them simply as one of the many splinter groups within Judaism, but slowly some came to oppose Christian practices and beliefs.(…) Persecutions of Christians, including torture and executions, were organized by governors of Roman province and sometimes by the emperor, beginning with Nero.(…)
Response to the Christianity on the part of Roman emperors varied. Some left Christians in peace, while others ordered them to sacrifice to the emperor and the Roman gods or risk death…
(…)
The crisis of the third century seemed to some emperors, including Diocletian, to be first the punishment of the goods. Diocletian increased persecution of Christians hoping that the goods would restore their blessing on Rome.(…) Constantine reversed Diocletian’s policy and instead ordered toleration of all religions in the Edict of Milan, issued in 313”


As I said before none eager Gibbon-readers should ever delude themselves to think that they have gathered historical knowledge just because they have read some Gibberish works made in the 1700’s as they are outdated and rejected today among the scholars for obvious reasons. – Reading Gibbon and thinking one is reading actual scholarships, is as much stupid as thinking one has read actual astronomy by reading Ptolemy’s “almagest”.

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Old December 20th, 2016, 09:39 AM   #58

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kookaburra Jack View Post
Who do we believe? The academic paradigm, closely associated with the inside "specialists" in ecclesiastical history, has traditionally followed the histories of the church on key elements, where they diverge from Zosimus' and Julian's invectives against Constantine.
Who are the proponents of the academic paradigm?
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Old December 20th, 2016, 05:33 PM   #59

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Originally Posted by Kookaburra Jack View Post
Do you think the age of ancient atheism ended in the 4th century as claimed by that author (above)?
I don't believe there was an age of 'ancient atheism' to start with. That a number of ancient philosophers rejected the existence of a pantheon of anthropomorphic deities who bickered amongst themselves and interfered directly in human affairs, is not the same as rejecting the notion of any god at all. er.

And such rejections as they made did not go unpunished, despite what you are trying to portray about the liberality of Greek/Roman polytheism.
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Old December 20th, 2016, 06:42 PM   #60

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Who are the proponents of the academic paradigm?

Historical fluctuations in the estimation of Constantine

WIKI
His reputation flourished during the lifetime of his children and centuries after his reign. The medieval church upheld him as a paragon of virtue while secular rulers invoked him as a prototype, a point of reference, and the symbol of imperial legitimacy and identity.[6] Beginning with the Renaissance, there were more critical appraisals of his reign due to the rediscovery of anti-Constantinian sources. Critics portrayed him as a tyrant. Trends in modern and recent scholarship attempted to balance the extremes of previous scholarship.
But my point related to the sources used for the evaluation and as we are all aware there are two extremes: for simplicity's sake - the pagan and the Christian (Ecclesiastical) sources. And as they are quite conflicting, while balancing these extremes might be regarded as objective, it may also well pass over the historical truth of the epoch 325-353 CE (particularly the events which occurred in Constantine's rule to 337 CE).
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Was there a "Decline & Fall" of the Classical Physician in the 4th century? Kookaburra Jack Ancient History 92 November 23rd, 2016 06:46 AM
How Seriously Outdated is Gibbon's "Decline and Fall..."? Kartir History Book Reviews 9 April 11th, 2014 05:44 PM
"Decline and Fall" vs "Transition" in your opinion? radomu Ancient History 13 May 28th, 2013 02:46 AM
Gibbon's "Decline and Fall.." spongeknuckles History Book Reviews 4 May 14th, 2012 12:10 PM
Need help with a citation in Edward Gibbon's "Decline and fall" HarveyVdarski History Book Reviews 0 March 27th, 2010 12:13 PM

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