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Old January 7th, 2017, 12:26 AM   #11

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Before of speculations, the other cartouches


If we look well at the notes recorded on the Griffith Institute site, we can observe that on two knobs there are two cartouches [visible also in the composition].

[001K-3 Griffith Institute: Carter Archives - 001k-3]

The first knob presents the cartouche where there is also the Royal name of Smenkhara with a particularity: there is a male plural in the bottom part [it's a curious variant: why that plural? In hieroglyphics to make the male plural you add 3 brief vertical lines].

The other knob presents the first cartouche with the prenome of Akhenaten.

This is interesting and it could be meaningful ... if there is a logic, on the knobs there could be the cartouches with the prenome of two personages and if the order is kept ... the second knob should carry the cartouche with the prenome of Smenkhara, but if this was true the penultimate cartouche should be different [it should be the name of Smenkhara
Click the image to open in full size.].

This makes the whole matter even more intriguing, since before of the cartouche containing the name of Meritaten there should be the cartouche with the name of the other pharaoh. And that cartouche looks referred to a woman [with all that beauty].

But of course, the knobs can have just an ornamental function and they report two cartouches because of lack of room [two knobs = two cartouches, anyway they made a selection].

Regarding the origin of the box, the site says nothing and the reference to the Egyptian Museum [JE 61500a-b] is not so useful.
[I mean about the detailed circumstances ... it's the "Tutankhamun: Anatomy of an Excavation
The Howard Carter Archives", so ... the origin ...].

Last edited by AlpinLuke; January 7th, 2017 at 12:28 AM.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 01:09 AM   #12
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Thanks again. Will mull over this for awhile, I think!

Last edited by Ayrton; January 7th, 2017 at 01:13 AM.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 01:17 AM   #13
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When you say Royal name for Smenkhara on one of the knobs, are we getting that actual name, or the version of Ankhkheperure again which is believed to be Smenkhara?
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Old January 7th, 2017, 01:37 AM   #14
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Have been trying to get a fix on what your 'plural' might mean in relation to the name on the knob, LukeAlpin. Tricky business for me as I am no grammarian. In relation to the knob, do any possible meanings come to mind?


NB Thought just crossed my mind. With the two knobs, could this be saying Akhenaten and Smenkhara (?) are two names for the one pharoah?

NB In an earlier post, LukeAlpin, you said that there is no difference in the throne name of Smenkhara and Ankhkheperure. I find this confusing. Not sure if this is because English is maybe your second language, or if I am just a bit too simple to comprehend. Do you mean something like: if you remove the 'sm' and the vows from Smenkhara, you get something like 'nkhr' and if you remove 'kheperu' and the vowels from Ankhepkhepure you might get something like 'nkhr'? And in this way, allowing for the variations in spellings and the extra bits, i.e the 'sm' and the "kheperu", we end up with the same name? So, to be totally clear about this, Smenkhara and Ankhkheperu are just variants of the same name?

Last edited by Ayrton; January 7th, 2017 at 02:24 AM.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 02:11 AM   #15

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton View Post
When you say Royal name for Smenkhara on one of the knobs, are we getting that actual name, or the version of Ankhkheperure again which is believed to be Smenkhara?
Good question, better to remark it again: it's not the actual name, that's the name referred to his royal status [the one present in the cartouche I have highlighted before].
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Old January 7th, 2017, 02:29 AM   #16
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Sorry, LukeAlpin, I added another edit to my previous post. It may interest you. I certainly would like to know your thoughts. Don't know if I am just barking up the wrong tree completely...
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Old January 7th, 2017, 02:29 AM   #17

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton View Post
Have been trying to get a fix on what your 'plural' might mean in relation to the name on the knob, LukeAlpin. Tricky business for me as I am no grammarian. In relation to the knob, do any possible meanings come to mind?


NB Thought just crossed my mind. With the two knobs, could this be saying Akhenaten and Smenkhara (?) are two names for the one pharoah?
As for I know the "plurale maiestatis" [which begun to be used in Roman age] wasn't known to ancient Egyptians as form of reverence towards a monarch. It could be an intensifier [but in this case, why the other knob doesn't present an intensifier?].

The most easy explanation is that who engraved the knob wasn't the same scribe who engraved the cartouches on the box and the two persons used two variants [may be known at that time at the end with all those "heperr" around ... it's the phonetic value of the hieroglyph of the beetle].

Two names for the same person?

Eh, regarding Smenkhara, there are several egyptologists thinking that he wasn't a new pharaoh, but a "recycled" one. Not only one idea circulates about who "he" was [may be "he" was a "she", there is even who says Nefertiti, and this would explain that female aspect of the following cartouche with all those "nefer"]. But until we won't find something decisive in Egypt, we can make suppositions.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 02:41 AM   #18

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"Great Royal spouse"


The real point in all these speculations is that Meritaten has presented as the wife of the pharaoh od the previous cartouche.

That a daughter got married with her father in ancient Egyptian Royal environment wasn't that incredible, on the contrary, it had considered a way to preserve the purity of the royal blood [just to say, Amenhotep pharaohs did it, before of Akhenaten we can mention Amenhotep III who got married with two of his daughters].

That a daughter got married with her mother who pretends to be a male pharaoh sounds a bit odd.

But ... one never knows.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 03:19 AM   #19
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Didn't Hatshepsut get depicted with her daughter as her wife? If so, Nefertiti could have Meritaten as her Great Wife in the same way.

Akhenaten, Nefertiti and Meritaten are included together on the coregency stela (prior to it being altered). Could this box inscription be a similar form of that inscription, though with different variations on names, and Nefertiti now inscribed as a pharoah herself, Ankhkheperure/Neferneferuaten/Smenkhare? Or is this a bridge too far?
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Old January 7th, 2017, 03:41 AM   #20

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Pharaohs carried several names


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton View Post
Sorry, LukeAlpin, I added another edit to my previous post. It may interest you. I certainly would like to know your thoughts. Don't know if I am just barking up the wrong tree completely...
I see now your comment: Pharaohs had several names, different names, I mean. Not exactly "names", in fact there is who prefers to say "titles" since they sound a bit like personal titles.

Not rarely the name of the pharaoh and these titles [for example the crown name] were totally different.

A modern comparison could be the French Sun King. In Ancient Egypt that "Sun King" would have become a Royal Name.
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