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Old January 7th, 2017, 02:45 AM   #21

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Originally Posted by Ayrton View Post
Didn't Hatshepsut get depicted with her daughter as her wife? If so, Nefertiti could have Meritaten as her Great Wife in the same way.

Akhenaten, Nefertiti and Meritaten are included together on the coregency stela (prior to it being altered). Could this box inscription be a similar form of that inscription, though with different variations on names, and Nefertiti now inscribed as a pharoah herself, Ankhkheperure/Neferneferuaten/Smenkhare? Or is this a bridge too far?
.

I've said a bit odd, but a woman pharaoh is a pharaoh, a horo, so what a man in that office can do is a possibility also for a woman.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 05:24 AM   #22
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How is this for a proposal?

Akhenaten is inscribed on the box but is already deceased.

Nefertiti is inscribed in three cartouches as Ankheperure (Smenkhara) and Neferneferuaten (both beloved of Akhenaten as either Neferkheperure or Waenra). Her names/titles relate to her Pharoanic status both before Akhenaten died and after. (In this scheme, Smenkhare is the later usage). Could this explain the extra cartouches for the one pharoah?

Meritaten is now Great Spouse of Nefertiti in her male phaoronic form (similar kind of thing to the earlier Hatshepsut situation).

Possible? Feasible? It is late here. I am tired.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 08:36 AM   #23

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Yes it's possible


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton View Post
How is this for a proposal?

Akhenaten is inscribed on the box but is already deceased.

Nefertiti is inscribed in three cartouches as Ankheperure (Smenkhara) and Neferneferuaten (both beloved of Akhenaten as either Neferkheperure or Waenra). Her names/titles relate to her Pharoanic status both before Akhenaten died and after. (In this scheme, Smenkhare is the later usage). Could this explain the extra cartouches for the one pharoah?

Meritaten is now Great Spouse of Nefertiti in her male phaoronic form (similar kind of thing to the earlier Hatshepsut situation).

Possible? Feasible? It is late here. I am tired.
Probably you will read this tomorrow, but this is a possible scenario. A mother decided to take the place of his husband to protect her daughter ... while the Hittite enemy was making pressure in the North.

With the smart "direction" of Ay behind the curtains and the support of one of the greatest military commanders ever in Egyptian history: Horemheb. And note that Tut had already given important titles to him, so that if he accepted [Horemheb was the "king maker" in that moment, let's be concrete] this transformation of Nefertiti, he had his good reasons.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 12:29 PM   #24
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Does your hypothesis have some relation to that business about the Hittite king sending a son to wed an Egyptian Princess of the Amarna Period?

While we are enjoying a bit of wild speculating.... (who knows, someone's wild speculation may turn out to be the facts!)

Meritaten may be the mother of Tutankhamun????

My scenario: Akhenaten is the Father of Tutankhmun. KY35 Younger Lady is Metitaten. KV55 mummy is her Father, Akhenaten. The DNA research awhile back suggests that KV55 and KY35YL are siblings. With the close inbreeding of the family, could they be instead Father-Daughter? Meritaten's mummy ends up being placed with her Grandmother Tiye; this occurs after she and Tiye were removed from KV55 to remove them from the Heretic's presence??? Both are a God's Mother! If my DNA thoughts are possible, this could make perfect sense.

Meritaten seems to have a definite presence with Akhenaten in both KV55 and KV62, doesn't she? (If Kiya is a pet name of Meritaten as a young girl, we can account for Kiya too. Personally I don't buy that some foreign girl or little-status Egyptian became a wife of Akhenaten's. Kiya's name on inscriptions might just be in informal situations, thus her Royal associations omitted?? Kiya's name disappears and replaced with her royal name, Meritaten, possibly around the time she bears Tutankhamun, and things get more formal in relation to her as a potential King's Mother???)

In this way, we don't have to guess up an ephemeral old barely known royal named Smenkhare into the picture, just call him Nefertiti; and just because some experts say KV55 mummy was too young at death to be Tutankhamun's father. With Nefertiti as grand mother - the pharoah Smenkhare herself! - we have accounted for Akhenaten, the two Ankhkheperure's, and Meritaten; and the inscriptional evidence for them in contexts relating to Tutankhamun... The Amarna family was very close knit, as is clear from inscriptions etcetera, isn't it? Close knit and seriously interbred.

If Meritaten was born about three years before Akhenaten ascended throne, she would be of the right age to bear Tutankhamun at the right time.

Didn't Hawass's experts decide KV55 mummy could be old enough, even if no one trusts him or his experts? Other evidence in tomb does suggest the presence (at least at some time) of Akhenaten. Are Hawass's science experts incompetent, or part of a vainglorious academic conspiracy, putting up findings that KV55 mummy is old enough, because Hawass's is a total fraud? Sometimes I think people just don't like him, which presumably makes him a fraud. I'm no conspiracy theorist, btw.

It also occurs to me in my scenario, Nefertiti (Smenkhare) dies soon enough (a year or three) after becoming sole ruler. Meritaten becomes regent for Tutankhamun for his ten years. Between Nefertiti and Meritaten we have the "kings sister" ruling for twelve years. His sources would give been sketchy. The Ancherres personages, were in power conjointly with Tutankhamun, though Manetho did not know that. This could explain the repeating of the Ancherres business. Records would have been scarce and confused at Manetho's time with the "expunging" of the Amarnans from history. Meritaten was wise enough not to become Pharoah, just the hand on Tutankhamun's shoulder, possibly actual regent. She worked to preserve Tutankhamun on the throne, as a royal mother would in those times, presumably. With Tutankhamun, she also begins restoring the Amun cult etc. (though not necessarily abandoning the Aten cult completely). Meritaten was careful to do everything through Tutankhkhamun to avoid any negativity in relation to Akhenaten, and Nefertiti's unwelcome place in the Atenist power structure, which might have offended and negatively affected the many who still worshipped Amun etc. .


When Tutankhamun died, Ay may then have tried to orchestrate a marriage of Meritatan to Ay, for political purposes, with Ay intending to gain the throne for the family through Meritaten. Meritaten did not like being married to this old man and servant, even if he was her Grand Father, so she sent her proposal to the Hittites to send her a royal son. Meritaten was about 32 years old at this stage and in reasonable health and capable still of bearing children with a Hittite Prince.

Meritaten is in the Amarna Letters, so presumably has some kind of proven role at court when Akhenaten was still alive, and could have had the wherewithal as regent or God's Mother to exchange foreign correspondence if she was desperate enough when Tutankhamun died.

Ay was outraged on discovering her treachery, and Meritaten was quietly murdered - to avoid a public sensation! (Explains KY35YL's fatal injury to face!?) Ay becomes pharoah and when Nakhmin dies before him, Horemheb becomes heir in an orderly succession.

It is still early in the morning. Maybe I haven't woken up properly, and my hypothesis is maybe not so logical and solid a set of speculations?!

All this built on the foundation an ambiguous inscription on a box!!!! Lol.

NB to fit in another another bit of wild speculation, Tutankhamun's Ankhsenamun is actually Anksenenamun Tasherit, a daughter of either Meritaten or Anksenenamun Senior, who was around Tutankhamun's age, and she pre-deceased Tutankhamun.

Cheers.

Last edited by Ayrton; January 7th, 2017 at 01:53 PM.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 01:09 PM   #25

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Zannanza? The Hittite Prince who was probably kindly intercepted and kindly killed?

About that prince, the Hittite records talks about an Egyptian Princess called "Dakhamunzu" and it's not that easy to understand who she was with certainty [in this case, having Egyptian and Hittite sources, it's important to make a correlation to find a correspondence].

Today the most credited hypothesis is that the Hittite "name" is not a name but a descriptive title: the disruption of "ta hemet nesu" [the wife of the monarch]. So it's not an indication about a personal identity.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 01:26 PM   #26

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton View Post
Does your hypothesis have some relation to that business about the Hittite king sending a son to wed an Egyptian Princess of the Amarna Period?

While we are enjoying a bit of wild speculating.... (who knows, someone's wild speculation may turn out to be the facts!)

Meritaten may be the mother of Turankhamun????

My scenario: Akhenaten is the Father of Tutankhmun. KY35 Younger Lady is Metitaten. KV55 mummy is Father. The DNA research awhile back suggest that KV55 and KY35YL are siblings. With the close inbreeding of the family, could they be instead Father-Daughter? Meritaten's mummy ends up with her Grandmother (after she and Tiye were removed from KV55????) If my DNA thoughts are possible, this could make perfect sense.

Meritaten seems to have a definite presence with Akhenaten in both KV55 and KV62, doesn't she? (If Kiya is a pet name of Meriaten as a young girl, we can account for Kiya too. Personally I don't buy that some foreign girl or little-status Egyptian became a wife of Akhenaten's. Kiya's name on inscriptions might just be in informal situations, thus her Royal associations omitted?? Kiya disappears possibly around the time she bears Tutankhamun, and things get more formal in relation to her as potential King's Mother???)

In all this way, we don't have to guess up an ephemeral old barely known royal naked Smenkhare into the picture, just call him Nefertiti; and just because some experts say KV55 mummy was too young at death to be Tutankhamun's father. With Nefertiti as grand mother - the pharoah Smenkhare herself! - we have accounted for Akhenaten, the two Ankhkheperure's, and Meritaten; and the inscriptional evidence for them in contexts relating to Tutankhamun... The Amarna family was very close knit, as is clear from inscriptions etcetera, isn't it?

If Meritaten was born about three years before Akhenaten ascended throne, she would be of the right age to bear Tutankhamun at the right time.

Didn't Hawass's experts decide KV55 mummy could be old enough, even if no one trusts him or his experts... other evidence in tomb does suggest the presence (at least at some time) of Akhenaten. Are Hawass's science experts incompetent or part of a conspiracy in putting up findings that KV55 mummy is old enough? I'm no conspiracy theorist, btw.

It also occurs to me, when Nefertiti (Smenkhare) dies soon enough after becoming sole ruler, then dies about nine or ten years later. First Nefertiti is coregent with Tutankhamun, and then a Meritaten is just regent (not pharoah) for ten years. Between Nefertiti and. Meritaten we have the "kings sister" ruling for twelve years. His forces would give been sketchy.

When Tutankhamun died, Ay may then have tried to orchestrate a marriage of Meritatan to Ay, for political purposes, with Ay gaining throne for the family through Meritaten. Meritaten did not like being married to this servant, (one who might have started the dismantlement of her father's precious Aten cult to boot!), so she sent her proposal to the Hittites to send her a royal son.

(Meriaten is in the Amarna Letters, so presumably has some kind regards of proven role at court when Akhenaten was still alive, and could have had the wherewithal to exchange correspondence if she was desperate enough). Ay and Horemheb were outraged on discovering her treachery, and Meritaten was quietly murdered - to avoid a public sensation! (Explains KY35yL's fatal injury to face!) Ay becomes pharoahand when Nakhmin dies before him, Horemheb becomes heir in an orderly succession. He speeds up reform of religion begun by Tutankhamun under Meritaten and especially Ay's direction.

It is still early in the morning. Maybe I haven't woken up properly, and my hypothesis is maybe not do logical and solid speculation from known evidence!


All this built on the foundation an ambiguous inscription on a box!!!! Lol.

NB to fit in another another bit of wild speculation, Anksenenamun is actually Anksenenamun Tasherit, a daughter of either Meritaten or Anksenenamun Senior!

Cheers.
Personally I tend to think that Ay was there because Horemheb was busy and he decided to leave the throne to the old [and smart] politician [Horemheb was the "iry pat", the hereditary prince, at the end ...]. The great military commander had something well more important to do. Even if, there is who suggests [for example the missing Christine El Mahdy] that it was Ay to force the hand, making all in a hurry, just to prevent the return of Horemheb after the death of King Tut.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 01:58 PM   #27
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I reckon the answers are there somewhere to be found. In fact, I have this feeling that the evidence is already under Eqyptologists noses, it's just no one has yet put the pieces properly together. We need a Sherlock Homes on the case. One given to actually sticking to the facts (jigsaw pieces), and putting them together logically. The books I've read, I often wonder if Egyptologists always even know what the facts are, and that perhaps too many just regurgitate what other scholars have decided are facts. They often make general or absolute statements, but then I can't find the facts to support them, and they don't quote them. Egyptology is a bit of a mess. But it's fascinating, nonetheless!!!
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Old January 7th, 2017, 10:41 PM   #28

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Egyptology suffers of a lack of reliable and comprehensive sources, overall regarding some periods of its wide temporal field of research. This situation is worsened by a couple of Egyptian bad habits:

1. to reuse material from monuments of previous Kings and Pharaohs
2. to literally try and erase the memory of previous Kings and Pharaohs fallen in disgrace.

In some periods these two "bad habits" have affected [together] the way Egyptians recorded their history. And ancient Egyptians didn't record history as we do [or as Greeks and Romans did], they made personages and events eternal on stone, they recorded this in temples, palaces ... it was only in Hellenic Egypt that what we consider "historians" appeared.

Even the ancient lists of Kings and Pharaohs had more a ritual meaning than a historical value [it's obvious that the historical value is evident, but they recorded the lists of the monarchs more to remember them than to write down the history of the country].

And Manetho hasn't helped a lot [for example, just about the Pharaohs of the Amarna period, his "history" is not that useful ... he talks about "Achencheres II" and "Rathotis"].
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Old January 7th, 2017, 10:52 PM   #29

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About Kiya and her destiny, we don't know, simply. What we can say is that Nefertiti probably took advantage from her disappearance and that the Maru-Aton saw her name in the inscription substituted by the name of Merytaton.
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Old January 8th, 2017, 11:36 AM   #30
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I find it difficult to think of a non-royal being honoured by inscriptions by Akhenaten in the contexts Kiya's name are found. It seems most of the records left in stone are squarely publications about his immediate family. This is why I find the "Kiya" inscriptions odd and wonder if Cyril Alfred was right to think of "Kiya" as being a pet name. A pet name of who? Either Nefertiti or Meritaten seem reasonable candidates. Hard to think of being so informal on stone about his Queen. But his beloved daughter? When Kiya grew older, or perhaps was taken on as a royal spouse, some formality returned in regard to her depictions and inscriptions?

As far as the Carter box goes, I wonder when it was made in comparison with the original Coregency Stela, this before the names Nefertiti and Meritaten were carved over and replaced with Ankheperure and Ankhsenenpaaten?

Also, we wouldn't have 'before' and 'after' translations of the Coregency Stela? With the actual names/titles on the stela and not titles/names of the personages they are 'thought' to be, if that makes sense? You know, something like: 'Nefertiti' when the actual translation should read 'Neferneferuaten' as a hypothetical example.

Last edited by Ayrton; January 8th, 2017 at 11:47 AM.
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