Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Ancient History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Ancient History Ancient History Forum - Greece, Rome, Carthage, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and all other civilizations of antiquity, to include Prehistory and Archaeology discussions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old July 12th, 2018, 01:47 PM   #3621
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Bendigo
Posts: 1,907

I am thinking about Ankhkheperure’s Coronation Hall. We have only record of ‘Ankhkheperure’ there? Or is there an ‘Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten’? Were there other name records/inscriptions of any kind found there? Any ‘Akhenaten’s’ or ‘Neferneferuaten’s’ or ‘Smenkhkare’s’?
Ayrton is offline  
Remove Ads
Old July 12th, 2018, 11:34 PM   #3622

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 22,600
Blog Entries: 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton View Post
I am thinking about Ankhkheperure’s Coronation Hall. We have only record of ‘Ankhkheperure’ there? Or is there an ‘Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten’? Were there other name records/inscriptions of any kind found there? Any ‘Akhenaten’s’ or ‘Neferneferuaten’s’ or ‘Smenkhkare’s’?

As for Dodson reports, Pendlebury said that they found blocks carrying the wrinting "Ankhkheperure in the House of Rejoicing in the Aten". So we haven't got the Son of Ra name and we haven't got epithets. Theoretically we cannot be sure of the attribution to Neferneferuaten or to Saakare / Smenkhkare. It would be interesting to see those blocks.

Last edited by AlpinLuke; July 13th, 2018 at 12:05 AM.
AlpinLuke is offline  
Old July 13th, 2018, 12:09 AM   #3623
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Bendigo
Posts: 1,907

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
As for Dodson reports, Pendlebury said that they found blocks carrying the wrinting "Ankhkheperure in the House of Rejoicing in the Aten". So we haven't got the Son of Ra name and we haven't got epithets. Theoretically we cannot be sure of the attribution to Neferneferuaten or to Smenkhkare. It would be interesting to see those blocks.
We have a definite attestation of ‘Ankhkheperure’ and ‘Neferneferuaten’ together on the Carter Box and on the Coregency Stela. Also in the graffiti in Pairi’s tomb.

We have no attestations of ‘Ankhkheperure’ and ‘Smenkhkare’ together anywhere as yet.

The only attestation of ‘Ankhkheperure’ with a name other than Neferneferuaten, is Ankhkheperure Saakhare Herepkhare.

We have Ankhkheperure AND Neferneferuaten AND Smenkhkare on items found at the palace. Why, considering the above, do we keep on thinking ‘Smenkhkhare’ was ever ‘Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare’? On first look, considering the above, we would put Ankhkheperure with Neferneferuaten. That’s going where the direct evidence leads.

‘Persuasion’ has run supreme for a long time... The reality is, there is no direct evidence to support the reality of a Pharaoh called Ankhkheperure Smenkhkhare Djeserkheperure. Or, to put it another way, there is the same amount of direct evidence to support the theory that Smenkhkhare was an alien. I joke, but it’s true.

Last edited by Ayrton; July 13th, 2018 at 12:24 AM.
Ayrton is offline  
Old July 13th, 2018, 12:12 AM   #3624

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 22,600
Blog Entries: 19

Now I'm checking Pendlebury's works about Akhetaten [he wrote about the archaeological researches in the area of the city]. The main problem is that he often uses expressions like "the name of Smenkhkare" without being accurate. Does he intend the Throne Name Ankhkheperure? It's not said it's Smenkhkare [like here https://archive.org/stream/MEEF40/40...e/n29/mode/2up].


Anyway the mentions of "Smenkhkare" are not a few. I am discovering that our "Ankhkheperure" was quite present at Akhetaten. I'm going to check if there are pictures or drawings of all these objects carrying "the name of Smenkhkare".
AlpinLuke is offline  
Old July 13th, 2018, 12:14 AM   #3625

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 22,600
Blog Entries: 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton View Post
We have a definite attestation of ‘Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten’ together on the Carter Box and on the Coregency Stela. Also in the graffiti in Pairi’s tomb.

We have no attestations of ‘Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare’ together anywhere as yet.

The only attestation of ‘Ankhkheperure’ with a name other than Neferneferuaten, is Ankhkheperure Saakare.

We have Ankhkheperure AND Neferneferuaten AND Smenkhkare on items found at the palace. Why, considering the above, do we keep on thinking ‘Smenkhkhare’ was ever ‘Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare’?

‘Persuasion’ has run supreme for a long time... The reality is, there is no direct evidence to support the reality of a Pharaoh called Ankhkheperure Smenkhkhare Djeserkheperure. Or, to put it another way, there is the same amount of direct evidence to support the theory that Smenkhkhare was an alien. I joke, but it’s true.

Actually I've just edited my post, adding Saakare. No, as for we have seen there are not direct evidences that "Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare" existed. Now I go back to Pendlebury's work about the city of Akhetaten to check who is his "Smenkhkare".
AlpinLuke is offline  
Old July 13th, 2018, 12:29 AM   #3626
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Bendigo
Posts: 1,907

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
Actually I've just edited my post, adding Saakare. No, as for we have seen there are not direct evidences that "Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare" existed. Now I go back to Pendlebury's work about the city of Akhetaten to check who is his "Smenkhkare".
I have edited my post but the gist remains the same.

I would like to see each attestation of ‘Smenkhkare’. We need context and a knowledge of the ‘things’ his name is inscribed on. Clearly, while not - according to evidence to hand - a Pharaoh, he did exist. So I feel we should be able to work out if he is:

1. A Royal.
2. An official, whether priest or administrator etc.
3. Both 1 and 2.
Ayrton is offline  
Old July 13th, 2018, 12:32 AM   #3627

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 22,600
Blog Entries: 19
Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare!


As usual ... Pendlebury, saying "the name of Smenkhkare" actually intends "Ankhkheperure". For example he says that IA3b carries the cartouche of Smenkhkare ... it's Ankhkheperure [https://archive.org/stream/MEEF40/40...rch/Smenkhkare] and, to say all, among those object there isn't Smenkhkare.


But, on the following page, in the bottom part, among the clay sealings [https://archive.org/stream/MEEF40/40...rch/Smenkhkare], the no. 29 shows Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare Djeserkheperu. Not Saakare ... We have found our alien and with the two cartouches associated.
AlpinLuke is offline  
Old July 13th, 2018, 12:40 AM   #3628

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 22,600
Blog Entries: 19
Not the Son of Ra Name ...


This discovery suggests me that I have to check the other work by Pendlebury [the one about the central city where the Palace is].


Anyway, let's note a detail: the clay sealing shows the caption of the Throne Name [the Bee and the Sedge], but not the one of the Son of Ra Name. Smenkhkare Djeserkheperu is not introduced as a Son of Ra Name ... it's like a second Throne Name. Looking at the sealing ... it's a Throne Name without the Son of Ra Name.


I could say it's an intermediate situation.


To summarize:


The Son of Ra Name associated to Ankhkheperure on the wall of Meryra II's tomb is Saakare [as Lepsius and others copied]. To the Throne Name Ankhkheperure is associated, on a sealing an other Royal Name [it's in a cartouche] but which is not a Son of Ra Name ... no caption.


At this point I'm beginning to suspect that "Smenkhkare" could for be for real one of the 5 "great names" of Ankhkeperure Saakare.
AlpinLuke is offline  
Old July 13th, 2018, 01:05 AM   #3629
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Bendigo
Posts: 1,907

While you do your researches, AlpinLuke, I am reconsidering the thought that Smenkhkhare djserkheperure might be a Throne Name and Nomen.

I know nothing of these things, but while Smenkhkhare sounds to me like it could be a Throne Nameor a Nomen.

Djeserkheperure, however, sounds suspiciously like one of those darn ‘epithets’ - or maybe a Throne Name itself, what with that ever-present ‘Kheperure’ element.

So could we have a Djeserkheperure Smenkhkhare as a short-lived Pharaoh?

Something like this sequence:
Neferkheperure Amenophis IV/Akhenaten
Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten/Saakare
Djeserkheperure Smenkhkhare (or reverse order of last two listed)
Nebkhkheperure Tutankhaten/Tutankhamun.

We have ‘Smenkhkhare’ and ‘Djeserkheperure’ among our ‘exhibits’ from the palace. We have ‘Neferneferuaten’ and ‘Ankhkheperure’ among the exhibits from the palace too. You and I have no problem, AlpinLuke, putting ‘Ankhkheperure’ as a Throne Name? So why should we have any trouble extrapolating and putting Djeserkheperure as a Throne Name?

Keeping the parachute open!
Ayrton is offline  
Old July 13th, 2018, 01:09 AM   #3630
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Bendigo
Posts: 1,907

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
This discovery suggests me that I have to check the other work by Pendlebury [the one about the central city where the Palace is].


Anyway, let's note a detail: the clay sealing shows the caption of the Throne Name [the Bee and the Sedge], but not the one of the Son of Ra Name. Smenkhkare Djeserkheperu is not introduced as a Son of Ra Name ... it's like a second Throne Name. Looking at the sealing ... it's a Throne Name without the Son of Ra Name.


I could say it's an intermediate situation.


To summarize:


The Son of Ra Name associated to Ankhkheperure on the wall of Meryra II's tomb is Saakare [as Lepsius and others copied]. To the Throne Name Ankhkheperure is associated, on a sealing an other Royal Name [it's in a cartouche] but which is not a Son of Ra Name ... no caption.


At this point I'm beginning to suspect that "Smenkhkare" could for be for real one of the 5 "great names" of Ankhkeperure Saakare.
Wow! I have asked about it being another of the Royal Titulary or a Throne Name before now, and now you seem to have a possible answer!

I wonder if my last post still has any bearing? Maybe not.... actually, maybe so! Must think, must think, must think....

Last edited by Ayrton; July 13th, 2018 at 01:13 AM.
Ayrton is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Ancient History

Tags
001k, akhenaten, archive, box, carter, nefertiti, tutankhamen



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Akhenaten's religious reforms holoow Ancient History 1 December 25th, 2015 10:14 AM
Did Akhenaten break Pharaoh's power ? Widdekind Ancient History 1 March 10th, 2011 03:30 AM
Depictions of Akhenaten Nick Ancient History 24 February 11th, 2010 08:59 AM
Akhenaten's influence on Judaism? Kuravid Ancient History 8 August 19th, 2008 08:28 PM
Archaeologists find Akhenaten-era tomb fire_of_sekhmet Ancient History 0 February 14th, 2007 06:51 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.