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Old January 10th, 2017, 05:23 AM   #41

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton View Post
Thanks again. If I can see the actual titles/names AFTER alteration I will at least feel I'm confident I have some hard facts as a starting point.

(I am an ex-cop. Logical investigation begins and ends with identifying basic facts and evidence. If facts are few and scattered, at least your speculations, whether sound or wild, can at least be based on a solid foundation).

How Egyptologist know what was on the Stela BEFORE it was over carved, interests me too. How confident can we be with the BEFORE personages?
This picture is more clear [it promises something, being an IT manager, I've got some tools to elaborate images to improve details and quality, I will try].
Click the image to open in full size.

What is reported about what happened is that someone [with all probability a scribe] chiselled the original names enough to make it possible a substitution. Usually this wasn't a marvelous thing to do on stone [as it's easy to understand] and traces of the previous writings remained here and there.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 11:56 AM   #42
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Can you translate what the AFTER names/titles are?

Also give some account of what remains of the BEFORE?

Must say, it is very nice to have met someone who can read hieroglyphics and has the patience to try and help me! You also actually try to answer my questions, my ACTUAL questions!, and without giving me a dissertation on Amarnan history and the facts as they know (believe?) them to be. Also, without the arrogance I sometimes get. Lol.

Much appreciated, AlpinLuke!!!
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Old January 10th, 2017, 12:31 PM   #43

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From what I can see [and I'm still looking for something more clear], I can be certain of the presence of Ankhkheperure *** Neferneferuaten *** [until I will be able to have a defined image I don't give the other parts as certain].

Furthermore there is the claim that there is also Ankhesenpaaton, as third name, but I cannot be sure.

Anyway, we've got Nefertiti substituted by a Pharaoh with the Royal Name of Smenkhara [Ankhkheperure] and a female name [suitable for Nefertiti].

Now, there is who says that "Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten" was a Royal personage [a co-regent?] which ruled before of Smenkhara. We would have two Pharaohs with the same Royal name in the same moment [substantially]. Not impossible, but ...
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Old January 10th, 2017, 06:23 PM   #44
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Interesting.

I have looked up Wikipedia under "Coregency Stela" where the altered inscription is supposed to be Akhenaten, Ankhkheperure Nefereuaten and Ankhsenapaaten.

But under another page I found on Google: "Smenkhkare: TheInfoList" (under sub-heading 'Neferneferuaten' in article), the names on the Stela are of only two personages. Akhenaten and "Ankhkheperure mery-waenra Neferneferuaten Akhet-en-hyes." (In two cartouches). Meritaten is still removed, replaced to fit in the two cartouches of the personage, Ankhkheperure etcetera. (This article translates Akhet-en-hyes as 'effective for her husband'').

How does any of this line up with what you can read?

Also, do you see the name/title 'Smenkhkare' in that form in what you can read???? That offers a third possibility in actual names translated!?!?!

Last edited by Ayrton; January 10th, 2017 at 06:41 PM.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 06:39 PM   #45
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Just so you know what I'm wondering about. If only Akhenaten and Ankhkheperure 'effective for her husband' are on the Stela, this would indicate (to me at least) that it is either Nefertiti or Meritaten on the Stela. (Meritaten if it is actually Nefertiti's name that was the one removed and Meritaten taking on the Ankhkheperure title/name). If Smenkhkare, a female Smenkhkare. Or even anothr (unknown) female personage, possibly a Coregent and/or wife???

So many questions.

Last edited by Ayrton; January 10th, 2017 at 06:50 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 12:36 AM   #46

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Aten or not aten ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton View Post
Just so you know what I'm wondering about. If only Akhenaten and Ankhkheperure 'effective for her husband' are on the Stela, this would indicate (to me at least) that it is either Nefertiti or Meritaten on the Stela. (Meritaten if it is actually Nefertiti's name that was the one removed and Meritaten taking on the Ankhkheperure title/name). If Smenkhkare, a female Smenkhkare. Or even anothr (unknown) female personage, possibly a Coregent and/or wife???

So many questions.
First of all, just this Stela is a great example of what I was saying about ancient Egyptian way to record history: it's fragmented, modified, in bad conditions ... the "bad habits" I previously mentioned in that period were really present.

Regarding who is the co-regent, we enter the mystery.

Again thinking to the damnatio memoriae, keep in mind that a couple of Egyptian lists of pharaohs [the so called Abydos and Saqqara lists] don't mention the pharaohs from Akhenaten to Ay [they jump from Amenhotep III to Horemheb!].

The other lists mention a Pharaoh between Akhenaten and Tutankhamon, the notorious Smenkhara. The similarity of the cartouches could suggest that before of being a proper Pharaoh Smenkhara was the co-regent [but with a curious prolongation].

That difference in the cartouch can also mean that the co-regent was a different person, not Smenkhara.

What we would need it's to complete the co-regency stela or to find an other stela describing that event in a more comprehensive way.

Consider that during the restoration [we can use this term in a properly way here] after the era of the cult of the Aten, the damnatio memoriae and the physical destruction of monuments, stela, objects ... affected a lot the memory of that pivotal moment in the Egyptian history.

This said, regarding Meritaten on the so called co-regency stela [the writing you mention is so long that a couple of original cartouches had chiselled], there is who indicates a further personage ... Ankhesenpaaten [her name could have substituted the one of Meritaten, could], future Tut's wife [and future Ankhesenamun, after the end of the cult of the Aten]. About her presence I have to trust who has been able to look at the fragments physically, because I cannot be sure to see parts of her Cartouche. This is why I haven't listed her.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 02:09 AM   #47
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Thanks. Did you notice I made two posts? I ask, because you did not appear to have made any reference to the first one?
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Old January 11th, 2017, 11:45 AM   #48

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I'm back to work ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton View Post
Interesting.

I have looked up Wikipedia under "Coregency Stela" where the altered inscription is supposed to be Akhenaten, Ankhkheperure Nefereuaten and Ankhsenapaaten.

But under another page I found on Google: "Smenkhkare: TheInfoList" (under sub-heading 'Neferneferuaten' in article), the names on the Stela are of only two personages. Akhenaten and "Ankhkheperure mery-waenra Neferneferuaten Akhet-en-hyes." (In two cartouches). Meritaten is still removed, replaced to fit in the two cartouches of the personage, Ankhkheperure etcetera. (This article translates Akhet-en-hyes as 'effective for her husband'').

How does any of this line up with what you can read?

Also, do you see the name/title 'Smenkhkare' in that form in what you can read???? That offers a third possibility in actual names translated!?!?!
This week I'm back in office after holidays, my free time is limited ...

I repeat that what WIKI reports is not clearly visible [the third personage, the future wife of King Tut]. On a side, not having a suitable reconstruction, or an image, of the hieroglyphs on the stela, I cannot exclude, but I tend to think that "not to be able to exclude doesn't mean to prove ...".
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Old January 11th, 2017, 11:56 AM   #49

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Akhet-en-hyes


First of all the "Akhet" is linked to the solar cult [before of V dynasty the hieroglyph was different, it wasn't a sun arising at the horizon, in the Pyramid Texts it wasn't].

And personally instead of "effective" [? in which sense?] I would translate it as "resplendent for hes husband" [less literal, more meaningful: resplendent in the eyes of her husband].
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Old January 11th, 2017, 03:24 PM   #50
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Thanks again.

So we can't exclude the translation in TheInfoList, nor confirm the Ankhsenpaaten attestation?

Sorry to hear you are back at work. Always a terrible business! At least, where I come from... ��

Resplendant does seem mor intimate btw.
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