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Old January 12th, 2017, 01:58 AM   #51

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Thanks again.

So we can't exclude the translation in TheInfoList, nor confirm the Ankhsenpaaten attestation?

Sorry to hear you are back at work. Always a terrible business! At least, where I come from... ��

Resplendant does seem mor intimate btw.
But, in my opinion, more Royal in the Egyptian sense. Beauty and perfection were common as attributes [or even as part of female names ... think to all those "nfr" - nefer]. The translation of hieroglyphs often questionable [and with several possible variants].

** Regarding Ankhsenpaaten we cannot exclude it [in this case I have to rely on who sustains this, because of the quality of the images I am able to find around].

Her cartouce presents a flying duck as particularity, but I cannot distinguish it.

Probably we can think that if her presence has been mentioned, who did it had enough reasons to do that ... I don't read that name, not because I can read all the cartouches on the fragments and it's not there ... but because I'm not able to see clearly all the cartouches on the fragments.

So, don't dismiss Ankhsenpaaten.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 02:28 AM   #52

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The tomb of Meryre II and "Smenkhara"


In any case, we can find a reference to our mysterious monarch: Smenkhara is represented on a wall of the tomb of Meryre II [an aristocratic powerful man of that period].

Click the image to open in full size.

During Amarna period the traditional canon to represent the human body got almost lost. As it's evident they kept just the orientation of the figure, while the shape was a bit different from the usual style.

This can make us wonder if it was a realistic representation. Not that probable: I think more to a different canon.

In any case, this representation can leave room for the hypothesis that Smenkhara was a woman.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 02:52 AM   #53

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And Meritaten ...

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 11:41 AM   #54
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That leaves the possibility that Nefertiti was Ankhkheperure as she was the most prominent female and so most likely Coregent if Ankhkheperure was female?

Perhaps if Ankhekeperure holds to usual case, this throne name refers to one person only? If that was the case, Ankhkheperure Nefereneferuaten could be coregent while Akhenaten was still alive, and Ankhkheperure Smenkhare the title change when she became sole ruler after Akhenaten died?? Meritaten became 'wife' (symbolically speaking) when Akhenaten died? (As depicted in Meryre II's tomb?)

****

Getting back to Coregency Stela.... We still have issue of how many personages are inscribed on it. Whether it is TWO personages: Akhenaten and Ankhekheperure 'resplendant for her husband'. Or THREE personages: Akhenaten and Ankhkheperure and Ankhsenapaaten?

I wonder if there is any hope of establishing one or the other possibility? To me, it might help with getting a fix on where the Coregency Stela sits chronologically in relation to the Carter Box inscription and the depictions of Smenkhkare and Meritaten in Meryre II's tomb....

*****

Another thing (getting back to the Carter Box). In the inscription, is Meritaten being inscribed as Akhenaten or Ankhkheperure's Royal Spouse?

Possibility 1. If Ankkhkheperure's Royal Spouse, then it would imply that Akhenaten was dead already when the inscription was made?

Possibility 2. If Ankhkheperure is both Neferneferuaten (early form) and Smenkhkare (later form), then does the Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten form on the box actually imply Akhenaten was still alive when the box was inscribed and Ankhkheperure was still only coregent at the time of inscription?

Last edited by Ayrton; January 12th, 2017 at 12:02 PM.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 12:40 PM   #55

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Something can be quite certain ... the Royal Spouse


Regarding the last point we could ["could", considering that we are discussing about the Amarna period] rely on KmT tradition:

again that drawing ...
Click the image to open in full size.

A Pharaoh was usually indicated [using almost literal translations] by the "Sedge & Bee" name [the name of the Lord of the Two Lands] followed by the "Son of Ra" name.

It was common that the Great Spouse [Great Wife] followed the "Son of Ra" name of the husband.

So that, Meritaten is showed as Ankhkheperure's wife.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 12:46 PM   #56

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P.S.

If you look carefully to the drawing you will note a clear difference ... if the Two Lands name is similar [it contains the Two Lands of Smenkhara], the Son of Ra name is totally different ...

This is intriguing, but we could contextualize this in Amarna period: not a few personages changed name during their life.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 01:05 PM   #57
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Your first reply suggests to me that Akhenaten then is spoken of posthumously, because if he was still alive, Meritaten would still be his wife!?

Your second reference to Smenkhkare confuses me. (Maybe I am easily confused! ��) Are you saying both Smenkhare and Neferneferuaten forms are on inscriptions on box????

Last edited by Ayrton; January 12th, 2017 at 01:08 PM.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 01:11 PM   #58
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PS Name changes in Amarna? Does this mean change from a Neferneferuaten to Smemkhkare in the one inscription????
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Old January 12th, 2017, 01:21 PM   #59

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton View Post
Your first reply suggests to me that Akhenaten then is spoken of posthumously, because if he was still alive, Meritaten would still be his wife!?

Your second reference to Smenkhkare confuses me. (Maybe I am easily confused! ��) Are you saying both Smenkhare and Neferneferuaten forms are on inscriptions on box????
Thinking to your job, I understand you ...

It's like to say that you find the fingerprints of two persons, but the first one has added the fingerprints of the second one!

It's about changing name. Smenkhare is not present, but "his" [or her?] Two Lands name is present in the cartouche.

Think to the above mentioned Ankhesenpaaten ... she was going to change her name into Ankhesenamum.

Why?

Because the name of a Pharaoh or of a Royal Queen or anyway of a Royal personage was linked to deity ... so that if the Aten lost its status of absolute deity ... there were several changes, also in the names.

But, if you want me to be rational, I don't see a reason why "Smenkhara" had to change "his" name in that way. I would think ... they are different persons [the presence of the same Two Lands name can indicate a relation of some kind, a proximity ... or a heritage].
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Old January 12th, 2017, 01:25 PM   #60

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton View Post
Your first reply suggests to me that Akhenaten then is spoken of posthumously, because if he was still alive, Meritaten would still be his wife!?

Your second reference to Smenkhkare confuses me. (Maybe I am easily confused! ��) Are you saying both Smenkhare and Neferneferuaten forms are on inscriptions on box????
About this [Akhenaten & Meritaten], you could be right.
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