Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Ancient History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Ancient History Ancient History Forum - Greece, Rome, Carthage, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and all other civilizations of antiquity, to include Prehistory and Archaeology discussions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 5th, 2017, 04:22 PM   #1
Citizen
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Bendigo
Posts: 49
Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)


I stumbled across the following under Neferneferuaten on Wikipedia, quoted as being an inscription on a box (Carter 001K)

"King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Living in Truth, Lord of the Two Lands, Neferkheperure-Waenra
Son of the Living Truth, Lord of Crowns, Akhenaten, Great in his duration
King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Lord of the Two Lands
Ankhkheperure Mery-Neferkheperre
Son of Re, Lord of Crowns, Neferneferfruaten, Mery-Waenra
Great Royal spouse, Meritaten, May she Live Forever."

Reading that, I kind of get the impression that only two people are being referred to here: Akhenaten and Meritaten.

I have tried to find out if the quoted translation is accurate or not, but all i can find on the Internet are arguments about "Smenkhare" and others and who is actually who.... etcetera.

Question 1: Can anyone here please confirm the translation's accuracy, or supply a better one?

Question 2: Can anyone here, and only sticking to the quote presented, tell me why this is two pharoahs and not just one pharaoh (and one spouse)?

Btw, and I hope this doesn't sound rude to mention it, I don't require a dissertation on Amarna history and the ins and outs of the current debate about Smenkhare or others: I'm just keen to know what the inscription actually says and, if read just on its own, is it one or two pharoahs being referred to?

Thanks, with fingers crossed someone here knows.

Last edited by Ayrton; January 5th, 2017 at 04:29 PM.
Ayrton is offline  
Remove Ads
Old January 5th, 2017, 10:31 PM   #2
Citizen
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Bendigo
Posts: 49

Apologies. Line two of quoted material in above post should be:

"Son of Re, Living in Truth, Lord of Crowns.... etc...."
Ayrton is offline  
Old January 6th, 2017, 12:33 AM   #3

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 16,275
Blog Entries: 18

Interesting question. There could be also Smenkhara there ...

Anyway, the translation you report is substantially correct, the form to indicate the king of the two lands [using the sedge and the bee for Upper and Lower KmT] was common.

[I would have used more figurative expressions, but it's the same].

The first cartouche shows one of the prenome of Akhenaten, the second it's his name.

About "Ankhkheperure Mery-Neferkheperre", eh ... here comes the problem: that's not the same person and it's not Meritaten [at first sight], that Ankhkheperure can be the name of Smenkhara [but it's in any case a particular name].
Click the image to open in full size.

As you can see, the last cartouche shows the name of Meritaten [and she is defined as the Great Royal Wife]. The previous cartouche shows a different name and it's evident also if you cannot understand hieroglyphs.

As said, the cartouche before of the mysterious one could make a clear reference to Smenkhara, the high part it's his Royal Name.

If the author was following a schema in proposing the names of the pharaoh, like for Akhenaten he had to propose two names of an other Pharaoh [who?], but it seems he didn't. Why should we suppose he proposed three names of Meritaten?

In any case, the problem with the identification of not well documented Pharaohs is that in Egyptian history it was traditional that Kings [and then Pharaohs] carried several "names" [titles], sometime similar, sometime really different.

For example, between the throne name of Ankhtkheperura and the one of Smenkhara there is no difference [so, starting from the prenome they could be the same person ...].

The real problem is that we haven't got a certainty about all the titles [names] carried by the personages [and some of the personages could be fake personages ...].
AlpinLuke is offline  
Old January 6th, 2017, 11:46 AM   #4
Citizen
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Bendigo
Posts: 49

Thanks AlpineLuke.

Just so you know, and for absolute clarity: no, I don't read hieroglyphs.

More questions!

1. Is this a whole inscription, do you know, or one that is partial, damaged, reconstructed etc...?

2. Is the original neat and tidy (professional in terms of the times), or is it rough, careless work by whoever inscribed it?

3. The names "Akhenaten" and "Meritaten" don't seem to have a counterpart for them in the other possible name-set as described by you. Would "Smenkhare", if it was present in that form, be a counterpart form to Akhenaten or Meritaten? (NB I don't see "Smenkhare" translated anywhere in the quote. I trust that means you're inferring the identity from another source or sources?)

4. Do the three columns indicate three names/titles?

5. Do you know if there is a photograph of the original? (Not that I will be able to read it, but to give me some idea of correspondences between similar or identical hieroglyphs and just to get a visual on what we're talking about).

Lots of questions. Hope not too many at once....



Edit: Also, what kind of box was it? What was in it, or would have been it? What sought of connection would it have to where it was found?

Last edited by Ayrton; January 6th, 2017 at 12:35 PM.
Ayrton is offline  
Old January 6th, 2017, 11:59 AM   #5
Citizen
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Bendigo
Posts: 49

Oh yes...

6. The first column is Akhenaten, the second column a second male personage, and the third Meritaten? (Seems it would be to me, but one must never assume).
Ayrton is offline  
Old January 6th, 2017, 01:44 PM   #6

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 16,275
Blog Entries: 18

1.
No, it's not the whole inscription. The wooden box [broken box] shows more. Make reference to this site: [Griffith Institute: Carter Archives - 001k-1], there are 4 cards [what you are making reference to is the "001K-4"Griffith Institute: Carter Archives - 001k-4.

2.
For a purist like me, it's not a totally traditional work, but in its context, that what we can expect.

3.
I see the name of Smenkhara in the cartouche.
Click the image to open in full size.

[Pay attention: it could be a composed name, not an extension of Smenkhara name, but generally scholars give credit to the presence of his name here]

4.
Great question ... it depends on the scribe ... [during Amarna period canons had drastically modified or even ignored]

5.
On Griffith Institute site they offer this: [not a great resolution], a composition of fragments
Griffith Institute: Carter Archives - p0478

6.
Be cautious about talking about "columns".
AlpinLuke is offline  
Old January 6th, 2017, 03:34 PM   #7
Citizen
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Bendigo
Posts: 49

Thanks again. I did go and check out Griffiths regards Carter 001K. Once I asked about photos I thought I better do some research myself and not be so lazy!

I am a little concerned about your answer to 3 above.

"...it could be a composed name, not an extension of Smenkhara name, but generally scholars give credit to presence of his name here".

From what I'm seeing I don't know I'm so sure I want to give such credit. I can only find "Ankhkhepure mery-Nepherkheperra". Does this actually mean something like "Ankhkheperure beloved of Nepherkheperra"?

When you see "Smenkhara"? is that really "Ankhkheperra" you actually see? Or are you really just saying you believe they are one and the same person by different names? As I said above, I don't know that I want to credit anything until I have the knowledge to credit anything. I mean no disrespect.

I see what you mean about columns!
Ayrton is offline  
Old January 6th, 2017, 04:12 PM   #8
Citizen
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Bendigo
Posts: 49

AlpinLuke, I just noticed that if you remove Mery-Waenra from Neferneferuaten, you are left with just Neferneferuaten. No, I'm not trying to be funny. Without the "beloved of (?) Waenra" we are left with what might be a Throne Name (?) If this is so, we have a pharaoh beloved of (?) Akhenaten, don't we? Both Akhenaten and Neferneferuaten follow "Lord of Crowns".

Some further thoughts (possibly wild thoughts!):

Could Akhenaten be deceased and his "beloved" Neferneferuaten still alive and pharoah, and Meritaten at time of inscription, Neferneferuaten's Great Wife?

Could Ankhkhperure mery-Waenra and Neferneferuaten mery-Nepherkheperra be the same person? Would it be true to say that you yourself believe it is actually "Smenkara" being referenced? Curious, if so, because wouldn't we then have Neferneferuaten and Smenkhara as being the one person, or have the situation where we have three pharoahs (and one Great Wife) inscribed on the one box?

Do you know where this box was found? Was it found in Tutankhamun's tomb, do you know? Whether yes or no, do we know the context of the box? Was it made to contain grave goods or was it something that only later became a box for storing grave goods, or did it never contain grave goods and was merely found in some domestic context? NB the reason I'm interested in these things, is because I want to know the possible motives of the folk having their names inscribed on this box. Fathers? Mothers? Sisters? Friends? Officials? Who was giving the inscriber directions?

Last edited by Ayrton; January 6th, 2017 at 05:03 PM.
Ayrton is offline  
Old January 6th, 2017, 04:45 PM   #9
Citizen
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Bendigo
Posts: 49

More research (via Wikipedia!)

Ankhkheperure Smenkhare Djeser Kheperu.

Considering our inscribed box, do we have 3 Ankhkheperure's (including the Smenkhare above as a separate pharoah not mentioned in the inscription), or 2 of them, or 1? As far as my limited knowledge informs me, nomens (praenomens?) like "Ankhkheperure" are not usually put to repeated use by pharoahs, tending to be unique to each one. I know some Egyptologists accept repeats - in this particular case at the least - but a triple-peat?

By the above process of thought, it would seem to me that the inscription's "Ankhkheperure" is surely referring to either one pharoah, also named Neferneferuaten, and Smenkhare is a totally different person; or, second case scenario, he (she?) is the same person as Smenkhare; or, third case scenario, we have that three-peat of the name, which would seem to push credulity too far, wouldn't it?

Am I missing something here? Fascinating, whatever the case!

Last edited by Ayrton; January 6th, 2017 at 04:51 PM.
Ayrton is offline  
Old January 6th, 2017, 11:48 PM   #10

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 16,275
Blog Entries: 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton View Post
Thanks again. I did go and check out Griffiths regards Carter 001K. Once I asked about photos I thought I better do some research myself and not be so lazy!

I am a little concerned about your answer to 3 above.

"...it could be a composed name, not an extension of Smenkhara name, but generally scholars give credit to presence of his name here".

From what I'm seeing I don't know I'm so sure I want to give such credit. I can only find "Ankhkhepure mery-Nepherkheperra". Does this actually mean something like "Ankhkheperure beloved of Nepherkheperra"?

When you see "Smenkhara"? is that really "Ankhkheperra" you actually see? Or are you really just saying you believe they are one and the same person by different names? As I said above, I don't know that I want to credit anything until I have the knowledge to credit anything. I mean no disrespect.

I see what you mean about columns!
There isn't the actual word "Smenkhara", there is his Royal name [which is Ankhkheperra or Ankhkhepepura, to put vowels in Egyptian names is always a matter of phonetic style, more than a certainty].

His proper name is [was] represented in this way
Click the image to open in full size.

Smenkhara-Djeserkheperra [or Smenkhara-Djeserkheperu]

But also about this Pharaoh we have to be cautious: his figure is disputed.
AlpinLuke is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Ancient History

Tags
001k, akhenaten, archive, box, carter



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Akhenaten's religious reforms holoow Ancient History 1 December 25th, 2015 11:14 AM
Did Akhenaten break Pharaoh's power ? Widdekind Ancient History 1 March 10th, 2011 04:30 AM
Depictions of Akhenaten Nick Ancient History 24 February 11th, 2010 09:59 AM
Akhenaten's influence on Judaism? Kuravid Ancient History 8 August 19th, 2008 09:28 PM
Archaeologists find Akhenaten-era tomb fire_of_sekhmet Ancient History 0 February 14th, 2007 07:51 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.