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Old June 15th, 2017, 03:37 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by AncientA View Post
yeah, independent commission with good archaeologists that gave an essay about the Al-maqar culture (9000 BC). we can't simply ignore the fact that there's a man made statue-s of "bridled" horse strongly suggesting the oldest report of horse domestication.

However, sure.

the Information and photographs of the site with the analysis were presented to a group of international experts and analyzers including the following:

- Prof. Abdul Rahman Mohammed Al-Ansari, professor of Arabian peninsula History and Archaeology.
- Dr. Sandra Olsen Head of the Anthropology Dept. ar Carnegie Museum of Natural history
- Dr. Arek Kukunawa Manager - Magazine of Prehistory of Ancient Near East and Staff Member of Paris University.


https://www.scta.gov.sa/en/Antiquiti...magarSite.aspx


scroll down for the peer reviewed part.
there are lots of paleolithic bridles
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

apparently thats not the thing that says "domesticated"
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Old June 15th, 2017, 03:51 AM   #22

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Originally Posted by fick View Post
there are lots of paleolithic bridles
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

apparently thats not the thing that says "domesticated"
Could you give me the names of the cultures, furthermore the precise Dating of the objects? That would be helpful.

If it depict bridled horse, then it attest the first domestication of horses. Until proven otherwise by new archaeological findings.
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Old June 15th, 2017, 04:02 AM   #23

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AncientA View Post
yeah, independent commission with good archaeologists that gave an essay about the Al-maqar culture (9000 BP). we can't simply ignore the fact that there's a man made statue-s of "bridled" horse strongly suggesting the oldest report of horse domestication.

However, sure.

the Information and photographs of the site with the analysis were presented to a group of international experts and analyzers including the following:

- Prof. Abdul Rahman Mohammed Al-Ansari, professor of Arabian peninsula History and Archaeology.
- Dr. Sandra Olsen Head of the Anthropology Dept. ar Carnegie Museum of Natural history
- Dr. Arek Kukunawa Manager - Magazine of Prehistory of Ancient Near East and Staff Member of Paris University.


https://www.scta.gov.sa/en/Antiquiti...magarSite.aspx


scroll down for the peer reviewed part.
Thanks for the additional information. Note that I was not discrediting your previous post, I donít have the knowledge to support it, or un-support it, I was only trying to contextualize it with Flavius post.

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Originally Posted by bananajoe View Post
You can correct me and iam open for new discoveries.
Sorry, I canít. This is out of my field. I am only here as a curious spectator.
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Old June 15th, 2017, 04:23 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by AncientA View Post
Could you give me the names of the cultures, furthermore the precise Dating of the objects? That would be helpful.

If it depict bridled horse, then it attest the first domestication of horses. Until proven otherwise by new archaeological findings.
those are magdalenian. in order to show domestication they look for age of stock, sex of stock, tooth wear etc.
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Old June 15th, 2017, 05:09 AM   #25

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AncientA, the information that you have provided is interesting. But it does not seem that the locals made good use of these animals as the IE people did. Did the domestication of horse led to their induction in Egypt or Assyria at that time? What did they do with their new domestic animals? Used them for their migrations, used them in wars? These are further questions that need to be looked into.
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Old June 15th, 2017, 07:46 AM   #26

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Horses and chariots were already known to the people of Indus Valley civilization.
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Old June 15th, 2017, 09:07 AM   #27

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Originally Posted by bananajoe View Post
. . .
You might want to provide sources which give readers information about the provenance of the art items that you have referenced, so that people know that they are not forgeries and also that the attributions and dates are accurate.

I noticed that in this article that you referenced:

https://www.scribd.com/document/2018...Zhou-dynasties

. . .no sources are cited at the end of the article.

Last edited by Ighayere; June 15th, 2017 at 09:19 AM.
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Old June 15th, 2017, 09:43 AM   #28

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AncientA View Post
yeah, independent commission with good archaeologists that gave an essay about the Al-maqar culture (9000 BC). we can't simply ignore the fact that there's a man made statue-s of "bridled" horse strongly suggesting the oldest report of horse domestication.

However, sure.

the Information and photographs of the site with the analysis were presented to a group of international experts and analyzers including the following:

- Prof. Abdul Rahman Mohammed Al-Ansari, professor of Arabian peninsula History and Archaeology.
- Dr. Sandra Olsen Head of the Anthropology Dept. ar Carnegie Museum of Natural history
- Dr. Arek Kukunawa Manager - Magazine of Prehistory of Ancient Near East and Staff Member of Paris University.


https://www.scta.gov.sa/en/Antiquiti...magarSite.aspx


scroll down for the peer reviewed part.
There's no peer review paper in the link that you posted here.

In fact those particular findings are not discussed anywhere: it does not appear nor it is cited on any peer-reviewed paper whatsoever, it's not discussed on any other scientific platform neither on any academic conferences, neither on any academic paper presentation besides the link you are providing.

Therefore, that theory clearly has no scientific consensus whatsoever.
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Old June 15th, 2017, 10:11 AM   #29

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Quote:
Originally Posted by robto View Post
There's no peer review paper in the link that you posted here.

In fact those particular findings are not discussed anywhere: it does not appear nor it is cited on any peer-reviewed paper whatsoever, it's not discussed on any other scientific platform neither on any academic conferences, neither on any academic paper presentation besides the link you are providing.

Therefore, that theory clearly has no scientific consensus whatsoever.
Actually, the discovery at al-Magar is discussed in academic sources, such as certain books.

This is one:

https://global.oup.com/academic/prod...c=us&lang=en&#

Where the author (Peter Mitchell, an archaeology professor at Oxford) states:

"Recently reported small stone figures of horses from al-Magar in western Saudia Arabia may be of equids, but their location suggests that either the African wild ass or the Syrian or Mesopotamian (onager) subspecies of its Asiatic relative is the animal represented. Recalling the spurious claims made for European Upper Palaeolithic art discussed earlier in this chapter, it is uncertain if harness elements are shown. Bones identifiable as those of horse have not been found."

https://books.google.com/books?id=iSnaBgAAQBAJ&pg=PP70

The discovery is also mentioned in these sources:

https://books.google.com/books?id=w0...page&q&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=FqlkAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA61

Not saying there is any consensus on those images really being horses yet though.


I find the material used to support the opening post of the thread unusual though. It seems to be citing some self published book on Amazon which (after previewing some of the book on Amazon) does not seem to cite its sources for its art images, dates, specific information, etc.
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Old June 15th, 2017, 10:41 AM   #30

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ighayere View Post
Actually, the discovery at al-Magar is discussed in academic sources, such as certain books.

This is one:

https://global.oup.com/academic/prod...c=us&lang=en&#

Where the author (Peter Mitchell, an archaeology professor at Oxford) states:

"Recently reported small stone figures of horses from al-Magar in western Saudia Arabia may be of equids, but their location suggests that either the African wild ass or the Syrian or Mesopotamian (onager) subspecies of its Asiatic relative is the animal represented. Recalling the spurious claims made for European Upper Palaeolithic art discussed earlier in this chapter, it is uncertain if harness elements are shown. Bones identifiable as those of horse have not been found."

https://books.google.com/books?id=iSnaBgAAQBAJ&pg=PP70

The discovery is also mentioned in these sources:

https://books.google.com/books?id=w0...page&q&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=FqlkAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA61

Not saying there is any consensus on those images really being horses yet though.


I find the material used to support the opening post of the thread unusual though. It seems to be citing some self published book on Amazon which (after previewing some of the book on Amazon) does not seem to cite its sources for its art images, dates, specific information, etc.
Ok, thank you for providing more sources related to that Archaeological site.

But my main point was that there is no peer-review article or any scientific publications that defends the thesis that horses were first domesticated in the Arabian Peninsula 9000 years ago. The bibliographical sources that you provided me don't even attest to that.
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