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Old May 6th, 2010, 11:50 AM   #31

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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Originally Posted by Edratman View Post
I am not a believer.

My problem with the Kensington Stone is the location. If it was 10, or even as much as 30 miles from the Atlantic coast I would accept it without question. But I cannot concieve of any plausible, or even implausible justification or reasoning for an entire ships complement to make that journey from Greenland to Kensington.
Pretty good reasons for unbelief. In the OP I suggested one possible reason - a missionary voyage. Other than that I have great difficulty in believing the hoax scenario.

1) The Runestone is carved by an expert in 14th century Mid-Swedish, living in Minnesota in the mid 18th century.

2) He then buries it in a spot which will, in time, become a farm. He plants a tree over it.

3) He does this in the sure knowledge that, in the late 1890s a "Scandinavian romanticism" fashion will occur.

4) He ensures that at least forty years have passed, pretty much ensuring that he won't be around to see his joke discovered.

Sorry, I can't get past the KISS principle. I believe it is genuine.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 03:03 PM   #32

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


I agree with you Chookie that there are lot of components in the story that make the stone appear to be the genuine article.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 03:04 PM   #33

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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I'll try to get a hold of my uncle and post whatever extra info he has.

.
Thanks. I would find that very interesting.
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Old May 8th, 2010, 11:18 PM   #34

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


I did a bit of digging.

Before I start:

YES, I know that Knights Templar myths abound and NO, I am not trying to tie the following to Templars as they're generally understood, nor am I going to tie this into any kind of Holy Grail stuff. I just want to make some observations.

Basic Idea:

The Vikings told St. Brendan about the Skraelings (Swedish: Mean things) to the West. Saint Brendan's tales of a land unknown to Christian Europe reached Rome. Eventually, Rome sent out an expedition or two to investigate the possibility of lands and souls unclaimed.

There is the remote possibility of Jacques de Molay, the last Grand-Master of the Templars, having undertaken such a journey in the first 20 years of his service to the Templars when he is said to have gone "Outremer" (overseas.) He, however, was French, not Swedish.

More likely is the task having been given to loyal, fearless, Northern Christians who had the cultural history and background regarding these savage lands. Being "savage," the church would not have wanted to send in peaceful priests, but rather a spiritual warrior class such as the semi-monastic Teutonic knights. They were the most powerful group of knights at the time, and had very similar ceremonies and rituals to the Templars.

A Scandinavian/Teutonic fleet sails West in search of the old Norse settlements and the savage lands beyond. They find the New world, contact both friendly and unfriendly tribes, and perhaps leave behind a priest or settlement among the friendly Tribes, most notably the Mi'kmaq. Ensuing Chaos/reformations in Europe and Rome quash any further expeditions, and the matter is kept quiet by the church as long as possible, until Columbus.


Observation 1: The 1st medieval warm period
The first medieval warm period is said to have lasted from roughly 300 to 800 AD (Vikings Colonize Iceland, Greenland, Newfoundland, maybe N.A. mainland such as Labrador; SPECULATION: St. Brendan probably travels to Iceland, learns of Northwest passage and lands to the West. News travels to Rome.)

Little Ice age after medieval warm period cuts Viking settlements off from homeland; Vikings either die or join the natives. The church is unable to pursue Brendan's claims, if they knew about them.


Observation 2: The Kensington Runestone ([ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Runestone"]Kensington Runestone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] )
Dated to around 14th century AD (2nd medieval warm period): Medieval Swedish Runes detailing an aspect of the voyage of a midsize contingent of Scandinavian Christian Sailors. Other Runestones dating to a similar period have been found in other parts of North America. The subsequent cooling once again isolates any Scandinavian settlers from Europe. They die or join the natives. Post-glacial continental rise and changes in water levels due to post-medieval cooling transform the landscape and waterways over time, erasing the old routes and navigational landmarks from our modern eyes. Either the voyage was made on behalf of the Church, perhaps due to St. Brendan's accounts, or on behalf of some other group.


Observation 3: The "Templar" Battle flag and the Mi'kmaq nation flag
An interesting observation if true, however I have not found much information on the "Templar" flag itself. What I HAVE found is the following:

In 1300, the Teutonic Order owned Livonia, now Estonia and Lithuania. They were allies w/ the Christian Scandinavian countries of the time (including Sweden,) and considered quite influential. What's neat is that the
Teutonic Flag (http://ordendeltemple.com.ar/fileite/teuflag.jpg ) appears to have influenced the:

Swedish Flag (http://www.google.ca/images?q=swedis...N&hl=en&tab=wi )
Danish Flag (http://www.google.ca/images?um=1&hl=...=&oq=&gs_rfai= )
Norwegian Flag (http://www.google.ca/images?um=1&hl=...=&oq=&gs_rfai= )
Icelandic Flag ([ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Iceland"]Flag of Iceland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] )
Faroe Islands Flag (http://www.google.ca/images?um=1&hl=...=&oq=&gs_rfai= ).


The cross element in all of these flags is known as the Teutonic cross, or Nordic Cross.

The Mi'kmaq flaq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi'kmaq ) also has this cross.


Observation 4: Medieval Scandinavian Clothing & Mi'kmaq clothing

Here is a picture of traditional Swedish female dress: http://www.williamson-county-histori...SH_COSTUME.jpg
(note ring holding shawl)

Here is a picture of traditional Mi'kmaq female dress: http://museum.gov.ns.ca/imagesns/bin...0-DEV01514.jpg
(note ring holding blouse)

Here is a picture of traditional Swedish male dress (note Goetland man on bottom, second from right): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...costumes_1.png

Here is a picture of traditional Mi'kmaq male dress: http://www.cqsb.qc.ca/svs/434/img/mp.jpg
(also another example of female dress - note ring holding shawl)

As an aside, note the facial features of the Mi'kmaq man, including the BEARD.


Observation 5: Funny funny words

In Mi'kmaq mythology, the divine transformer/creator's name is Glooscap.

In Swedish, there exist the following terms:

Glass Skap = Ice community (this one is my pick)
Klass Skap = Creek community
Gud Skap = Divine Community (the church, maybe?)
Gud Skapa = Divine Creator

The reason I bring up the Templars up is because of the common mythologies/legends/speculations regarding the flag connection and the Mi'kmaq Grand Chief's ceremonial robes being identical to the Templar Grand Master's robes. I suggest that if any pre-Columbian connection exists between Christian Europe and the Mi'kmaq, it is Teutonic, not Templar: The flag points more strongly to a Nordic Christian influence, and the Grand Masters of the various Papal Orders all wear robes resembling the papal robes.

Miscellany:
There is also the pre-Columbian prophecy among the Mi'kmaq that the White man would come from across the Sea.

Another interesting myth is the Myth of Glooscap's voyage across the Ocean to Europe. In this story, he went to France, was arrested and sentenced to be burned at the stake, but survived and escaped unharmed. This resembles Jacques De Molay's story of being tried and burned in Paris in 1314. If the story is Pre-Columbian and in any way connected to Jacques de Molay, it may indicate contact with someone who was familiar with the Templar's story.

Well, there you have it. My little idea and little Observations. Whaddaya think?

Last edited by DiaitaDoc; May 9th, 2010 at 03:11 PM.
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Old May 22nd, 2010, 07:02 AM   #35
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Re: The Kensington Runestone


Take it to DISCOVERY for a show.
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Old May 22nd, 2010, 08:58 AM   #36

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


The Vikings couldn't have told St Brendan anything. He lived about two hundred years before they emerged from their mountain feasting halls, it doesn't work.
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Old May 22nd, 2010, 11:53 PM   #37

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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Originally Posted by Ri Fhionngaill View Post
The Vikings couldn't have told St Brendan anything. He lived about two hundred years before they emerged from their mountain feasting halls, it doesn't work.
Yeah, St. Brendan isn't my first pick anymore either. I've been meaning to write some more stuff, just hadn't gotten around to it.

There's a much better candidate, and a better story. The candidate is [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Knutson"]Paul Knutson[/ame]. The story is one of missionaries and shipwrecks.

Around 985AD, Erik the Red set off to Greenland with 25 ships. 14 arrived. On those 14 ships were both Christian and Pagan settlers. Erik divided the settlers into two main settlements: The Eastern Settlement, founded as a Christian settlement, and the Western Settlement, founded as a Pagan community.

The settlements struggled. Although trade with continental Europe via Iceland and geographical Norway was occuring, the 1st medieval warm period was ending, making travel to and from Greenland very difficult.

Over the next 200 years, contact was barely maintained with the Vatican, although occasional references were made regarding the Greenland Tithes and parishes. The vatican records of this time note the infrequency of ships to Greenland, as well as the difficulties in obtaining tithes from the Greenland settlements.

In the early 12th century, the Vatican decided to appoint a separate bishop to Greenland. The first bishop, Analdur, was ordained in 1124, and arrived in Greenland in 1126 and became the first Bishop at Gardar - a middle settlement between the Eastern and Western settlements, today known as Igaliku. I suspect that it is at this point that the Christianization of the Western settlement began.

In 1341, Ivar Bardarson was appointed as a Tithe collector for Greenland and Vinland. He was a geographer who apparently owned and astrolabe, and in the 1350s he wrote a document called "A description of Greenland." He described the Western settlement as having been abandoned/overrun by the Skrae Lings.

In that same time, numerous references to Paul Knutson appear in the Vatican papers (1342, 43, 45, 47, 48.)

In 1349, the Black Death arrived in Bergen but spread slowly. The Black Death exhausted itself in 1350, having taken about 2/3rds of the Scandinavian population (the estimated population prior to the Plague was 500,000.) Trade in general died out during this time, especially trade with Iceland and Greenland. The Scandinavian economy took a huge hit, and was much longer in recovering than the rest of Europe.

However, in November 1354, a letter arrived in Bergen from King Magnus IV of Sweden. In it, he appointed Paul Knutson as commander of an official expedition to Greenland. Knutson was given a brief to uphold Christianity there, as it was in his ancestor's time. I suspect that part of the reason was to re-establish contact with Greenland and the other Atlantic Island parishes belonging to the Trondheim ArchDiocese after the Plague.

The collapsed economies of Scandinavia would not have been able to support such a voyage. The specific missionary status of the expedition suggests that Rome may have helped with the bill.

Vatican gold, Vatican mission... why not Vatican ships? Well, not exactly Venice Arsenal ships, but the Hanseatic League was very powerful at the time, and based in Bergen, where the letter from Magnus IV arrived for Paul. What's more, the Hanseatic League was administered by a Vatican order - the Teutonic Knights, bearers of the Teutonic Cross. Also of note is the the Hanseatic League's use of the Cog, a bigger, deeper keeled ship than the Norse sailors and merchants of the time were using, better suited for Ocean voyages. (Also of note are the Mi'kMaq petroglyphs of ships resembling cogs, although I am unsure how long that design was around for.)

(Side note: the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Orkney"]Orkney Islands flag[/ame], also once governed by a Norse Jarl (Earl,) sports a version of the Teutonic Cross as well. The distribution of the Teutonic/Nordic cross may have something to do with the formation of the ArchDiocese of Nidaro (Trondheim) in 1152. Perhaps the Hanseatic League was involved not only in the dissemination of this new edict, but also in maintaining the trade and communication routes throughout the ArchDiocese - hence the prominence of the Teutonic Cross on the flags of the Trondheim ArchDiocese members.)

We therefore have a coming together of:

- [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League"]The Hanseatic League[/ame], a Teutonic-run fleet under the Teutonic Cross capable of Ocean voyages;
- An order to a certain Paul Knutson in Bergen (home of the Hanseatic League) to Uphold Christianity as it once was (Speculation - this kind of expedition would involve Priests and perhaps Knights) [note this link has LOTS of info: Paul Knutson's info starts at Diplomatarium Norwegicum bind 1. Nr 66 and 67 [from document in the Vatican Archive (Nic.III An.II. ep.39).]: #13];
- Crewmen from Scandinavian countries, wearing Scandinavian dress and using Runes
-Runes in North America such as the Kensington Runestone, carbon dated to the timeframe in question
-Natives wearing clothes very similar to Scandinavian dress and Teutonic/Papal robes in North America among the Mi'kMaq (see my previous post)
- The Teutonic Cross in North America among the Mi'kMaq (see my previous post)
- Stories of "Glooscap" or perhaps "Gud/Glass Skap," as well as stories about white men among the Mi'kMaq (see my previous post)
- European looking Mi'kMaq at the time of European contact (see my previous post.)

The last document regarding Paul Knutson was the 1354 letter. His fate is unknown, but I think that it is his expedition that travelled to North America and left the Runestones. I suspect that his ships or men met with ruin, leaving the remaining survivors to either form their own distinct community or to absorb themselves into the Wabanaki people, blending their Scandinavian culture into the Mi'kMaq.

They should do genetic testing at least.

EDIT: In Scandinavian, "Mig Maka" and "Mig Make" mean "My husband" and "My Wife." Interesting, at least.
EDIT II: Added links to cogs and petroglyphs.

Last edited by DiaitaDoc; May 23rd, 2010 at 11:36 PM.
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 01:39 AM   #38

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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I am inclined to believe the stone is genuine based primarily on the geochemical analysis which indicates that it is at least two-hundred and possibly 500 years old. However, 500 years is not 700 years so I have reservations. It seems to me that both sides have valid arguments.

http://en.allexperts.com/e/k/ke/kens..._runestone.htm

http://www.seattlepi.com/national/168635_prank12.html
These links grossly misrepresent Scott Wolter's forensic analysis. In his own words:

The stone appears to be a portion of a glacial erratic that has clearly been "dressed" to its present shape. Man-made surfaces were found that clearly show weathering, but to a lesser degree than the glacial surfaces. Also, significant iron-oxide deposits, or rust, were observed on several original groove surfaces. The deposits are the by-product of decomposition of pyrite from within the stone.


Additionally, we observed evidence of more recent carving or retooling in roughly 90 percent of the runeforms. The retooling has removed alteration products from the grooves and crushed the minerals, producing a white color that looks "fresh" at first glance. When the retooling was done is unclear, but it is believed to have been performed shortly after discovery, perhaps within days.


http://web.archive.org/web/200208182...runestone.html

In other words, the stone was dressed/shaped at some time in the past and then left in the ground; recently (ie late 1800s) dug up; and then marked with runes days later.
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 09:07 AM   #39

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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Additionally, we observed evidence of more recent carving or retooling in roughly 90 percent of the runeforms. The retooling has removed alteration products from the grooves and crushed the minerals, producing a white color that looks "fresh" at first glance. When the retooling was done is unclear, but it is believed to have been performed shortly after discovery, perhaps within days.


http://web.archive.org/web/200208182...runestone.html

In other words, the stone was dressed/shaped at some time in the past and then left in the ground; recently (ie late 1800s) dug up; and then marked with runes days later.
Thanks for the link. There is also the possibility that the Runes were, as your source mentions, "re-tooled." Perhaps the discoverers cleaned the runes out with a tool after finding it.
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 12:41 PM   #40

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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Originally Posted by DiaitaDoc View Post
Thanks for the link. There is also the possibility that the Runes were, as your source mentions, "re-tooled." Perhaps the discoverers cleaned the runes out with a tool after finding it.
Possible, but I think it's more likely somebody found some native petroglyphs, spent a few days transforming it into a rune-stone, and then presented it.
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