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Old May 23rd, 2010, 07:07 PM   #41

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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Originally Posted by Edgewaters View Post
Possible, but I think it's more likely somebody found some native petroglyphs, spent a few days transforming it into a rune-stone, and then presented it.
Possible also, but less plausible than it being genuine.

If I found a petroglyph, that in and of itself would be enough to both amaze me and make me tell someone. Spending time removing all traces of it and then adding runes seems nonsensical. Not impossible mind you, but, well, stranger than an expedition actually having left it behind - in my mind, anyway.

If it was originally a native petroglyph, there may be hints to that effect - aren't there fancy X-ray methods to read inscriptions which have been worn away?
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 09:50 PM   #42

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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Possible also, but less plausible than it being genuine.
Not really. Occam's razor. One scenario calls for a guy, during a period of Viking romanticism, to turn some markings on a rock into runes.

The other calls for widespread penetration of the Americas by Vikings.

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aren't there fancy X-ray methods to read inscriptions which have been worn away?
Nothing's worn away.
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 09:59 PM   #43

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


How would you account for the runes all up and down the coast, fake as well?
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 10:14 PM   #44

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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How would you account for the runes all up and down the coast, fake as well?
Same way I'd account for crop circles.

Bit strange how they were all "discovered" during the same period of Viking romanticism, no?
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 10:23 PM   #45

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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Same way I'd account for crop circles.

Bit strange how they were all "discovered" during the same period of Viking romanticism, no?
Not exactly. The stone at Narragansett bay,(last two pics of post 7), was discovered in 1971. The location it is in now is covered by sea water depending on the tide, but 500 years ago was sitting visibly on the beach. So if someone commited a hoax, why would they put it in a place that had a very minimal chance of being found?
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 10:40 PM   #46

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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Not exactly. The stone at Narragansett bay,(last two pics of post 7), was discovered in 1971.
Somebody will do a crop circle long after the fad dies out.

Put it this way: the Vikings didn't leave a single runestone in Newfoundland or Greenland. Instead, they left the remains of settlements, and iron tools and other artifacts (some of which were circulating among natives). Yet suddenly, where the American border starts, dozens of runestones start appearing - but nothing else. Did they get to the border and say "okay guys, we're at what will one day be the US border so from here on in, remember we can't leave any trace except runestones; so get carving!"

A simple explanation is that it's much harder to fake authentic tools and settlement sites. Runestones are fairly easy; no special skill other than knowledge of runes is needed (all the texts being in modern versions of Scandinavian languages). Faking a corroded clasp or hammer is an entirely different story, and wouldn't everyone be suspicious when it was always blacksmiths who found them?

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The location it is in now is covered by sea water depending on the tide, but 500 years ago was sitting visibly on the beach. So if someone commited a hoax, why would they put it in a place that had a very minimal chance of being found?
To find it themselves, of course.

Do you really think nice fresh runic carvings would remain on a stone subjected to tides for 500 years?
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 10:58 PM   #47

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


Well if L'Anze aux Meadows was the winter camp and exploration base within the lands of Vinland, why wouldn't they leave markers down the coast? The Vinland map only went so far south, and who is to say why they would have been there in the first place.

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Do you really think nice fresh runic carvings would remain on a stone subjected to tides for 500 years?
By saying that 500 years ago, the marker at Narragansett bay wasn't under water, doesn't mean it has been underwater for 500 years.
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 11:16 PM   #48

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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Well if L'Anze aux Meadows was the winter camp and exploration base within the lands of Vinland, why wouldn't they leave markers down the coast?
The more appropriate question is, why wouldn't they leave markers down the coasts of Newfoundland and Greenland? They were exploring those places before they settled.

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By saying that 500 years ago, the marker at Narragansett bay wasn't under water, doesn't mean it has been underwater for 500 years.
Those markings probably would be (and likely will be) completely eroded within a century. Just rain will erode inscriptions pretty badly in that amount of time, such as this 1918 headstone:

http://www.oodwooc.co.uk/web_pics/hu...on/Hull024.jpg

What the tide will do is much worse.
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 11:32 PM   #49

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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The more appropriate question is, why wouldn't they leave markers down the coasts of Newfoundland and Greenland? They were exploring those places before they settled.
Maybe the natives stole them or defaced them.

Quote:
Those markings probably would be (and likely will be) completely eroded within a century. Just rain will erode inscriptions pretty badly in that amount of time, such as this 1918 headstone:

http://www.oodwooc.co.uk/web_pics/hu...on/Hull024.jpg

What the tide will do is much worse.
Good thing the Baihe Liang inscriptions don't know any better!

Click the image to open in full size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNESCO
Baiheliang (White Crane Ridge) is located in middle of the Changjiang River north to Fuling City, Chongqing. The name comes from cranes which used to gather on the stone ridge in the past. The stone ridge is 1600 m long and about 25 m wide, approximately parallel to the south bank. It is submerged under the water all year round and only appears during the low water season of the river in winter. The stone ridge has a leucocratic sandstone surface which is rather flat with a 14.5°northward obliquity. Lying on the main traffic route of the Changjiang River the ridge provides a very good location for inscription.

With the large number of underwater inscriptions, long history, authentic and detailed water level records, rich inscription contents, diversified forms and perfect integration with the Changjiang River and the environment, Baiheliang is called a great underwater wonder.

...According to incomplete statistics: literal inscriptions total more than 160 sections and more than 30,000 words among which 98 sections are inscriptions of the Song Dynasty, five of the Yuan Dynasty, 16 of the Ming Dynasty, 23 of the Qing Dynasty, 14 of the Republic of China, and still there are a few segments with years unknown.
Inscriptions can survive a long time underwater. Longer than I expected, actually.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 12:08 AM   #50

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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Maybe the natives stole them or defaced them.
Sure ... they did a 100% perfect job of erasing all inscriptions north of the border, and then said "hey this will be the US border in 500 years. We better not do it south of here."

Quote:
Good thing the Baihe Liang inscriptions don't know any better!
Sure they do. That's why they're carved such that they're underwater almost all the time, except in very dry years. They are not being exposed to daily tides (nor are they in salt water, which is far more corrosive). It's not contact with water itself that causes much of the erosion, it's the tidal action. Unless there is a strong current present, merely being submerged doesn't cause alot of erosion. Particularly in freshwater, relative to salt water.

What happens to surfaces exposed to tide (besides strong currents as it washes in and out) is that the water where it meets the air has surface tension and forms a membrane with some resistance. This is why some insects can walk on it. This membrane passes over the surface on a daily basis, back and forth, scrubbing it. The Baiheliang inscriptions were exposed to this action once every 3-5 years. It would take a millenia to expose them to the equivalent of just 3 years worth of tidal action.
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