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Old May 23rd, 2010, 11:32 PM   #51

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


I'll look into the tide/salt water thing.

On another note: What about [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dighton_Rock"]Dighton Rock?[/ame]
Click the image to open in full size.

It was found in the Taunton riverbed in Berkley Massachusetts. The first drawing of it was by Reverend John Danforth in 1680. Well before any Viking Romanticism in North America. I'm not saying it's "Viking," but it's yet another weird inscribed stone (from the looks of it with some kind of lettering) found along the "Runestone trail" or whatever you want to call it.
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 11:53 PM   #52

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


Quote:
Originally Posted by DiaitaDoc View Post
I'll look into the tide/salt water thing.

On another note: What about Dighton Rock?
Not like there weren't scripts in that part of the world, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi'kmaq...lyphic_writing

Written in almost the same sort of style too - not actually as a "script" but as humanlike figures with symbols interspersed as mnemonic aids, in order to tell a story. Example:

http://www.shunpiking.com/mikmaq/story-teller.htm
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Old May 24th, 2010, 01:53 PM   #53

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


Yes, very cool!

The Mi'kMaq script is doubly interesting to me because as far as I know, it's the only written language found in North America. A lot of people have tried to associate the script with other languages before - notably Egyptian and Chinese (wtf?)

I haven't gotten around to examining whether or not there's a connection between the Mi'kMaq script and any regional Scandinavian languages and scripts. I've heard that the medieval Hooked X rune (not, to my knowledge, represented in the Mi'kMaq script) has recently been found in Europe, but I don't know where or on what. Maybe someone with better linguistic skills than me can take a quick look...

A reasonable assumption (to me) regarding any marooned Europeans in Pre-Columbian North America is that they would retain the act of writing, but perhaps the writing and language itself would change over time, blending with local languages and developing into a hybrid of some sort. Another element may be the actual literacy level of the marooned explorers. Perhaps a few may have been well educated, but how many generations would it take for the info to vanish, especially among foreign-speaking natives, without any fresh context for their European roots?

I also heard an interesting piece of info about how medieval Swedish is actually much closer to modern Swedish than previously thought. There's an article on it floating around, I'll see if I can find it and add it to the thread.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 01:55 PM   #54

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


Yeah, or maybe, people who aren't white can invent logograms and whatnot for themselves. Perhaps even the savage brutes of the precolumbian Atlantic coast.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 01:59 PM   #55

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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Yeah, or maybe, people who aren't white can invent logograms and whatnot for themselves. Perhaps even the savage brutes of the precolumbian Atlantic coast.
Not saying they didn't... I'm just suggesting that it's worth a look.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 03:03 PM   #56

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


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Originally Posted by DiaitaDoc View Post
I've heard that the medieval Hooked X rune (not, to my knowledge, represented in the Mi'kMaq script) has recently been found in Europe, but I don't know where or on what. Maybe someone with better linguistic skills than me can take a quick look...
.

Sweden 2004, the Larrson runerow from some 1883 notes, five years before the Kennsington Runestone was found.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 07:58 PM   #57

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


Possible time line for explanationn on this...

600 BC...The Phoenecians discover N America (but keep it secret to outsiders)

200-300 BC...The Irish Celts (certain ones) learn of this/are brought into the secret through trade/religious connections (Druids).

600s-800s AD...Irish Christian clerics learn of this secret during the Christianization of Ireland when Druidic secrets fall into Christian possession. Enter St Brenden 6th century. (see Upton chamber-beehive huts in New England)

900s AD...Vikings begin to raid Ireland...sack monasteries at Armagh/Devinish. Here they find Irish clerical records, and learn of the land across the Western Sea.

1000s AD...Viking explorations, Erikson, Vinland sagas, etc.

1200-1300s AD...Pre-settlement thinking begins among certain circles with Norse connections. The Kensington Stone established as a land marker..ala the "Ley Lines". See England "Ley Lines" or "Canterbury-Ley Lines". Other monuments established as well in these "Fern Hawlles" by the "Palmers who seeken straunge strondes".

1382 AD English spy and closet Lollard, Geofrey Chaucer (expert in Astrolabes) send messages related to this, and many other sensitive matters, to his overlord (John of Gaunt) as secret written accounts embedded in The Canterbury Tales. Chaucers apartment robbed by unknown perpetrators, only partially successfull in securing data. 1400 AD, Chaucer dies. Henry IV (returning knight mentioned in TCT) who once campaighned with Teutonic Order, becomes King in wake of Richard II. Lollard movement soon faces persecutions.

One must learn to read between the lines here and distinguish coded text from filler text (ie.."the world wonders" of 1944 code). Such as from the "Manciple's Tale"..."And to the crowe, O false theef, seyde he...".
(The manciple was a buyer for 30 lawyers) makes refferences to the black crowe (viking symbol= raven). How many are mentioned on the Kensington Stone again? What lawyers? Where were they from? (From what had been the Temple, of the Knights Templars). Hmm. What a coincidence!

Chaucer was a most clever fellow, wasnt he?

1400-1450s...Portugese began explorations to circumnavigate world, find Prestor John (Prince Henry fascinated with Prestor John), Navigation school established Sagres, etc etc etc.

Descendant of Geofrey Chaucer, Sir Francis Drake, sets out to find/establish "Nova Albion" (notice wording). He does much to help to map coast of New England (and West Coast) for eventual settlement by descendents of Lollards (Pilgrims) and sepperatist.

And the rest is history, so to speak.

At what point does a series of circumstances cease to be that, and become a trail of clues?
And, (I just couldnt resist) let us see if we can find a clue here, hmm??? Watch carefully!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc8XPv_qstA"]YouTube - Canterbury Tales Rap[/ame]

Of course, it might not have been that way at all?... Just some thoughts.

Last edited by Richard Stanbery; May 26th, 2010 at 07:25 AM.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 09:22 AM   #58

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Stanbery View Post
1200-1300s AD...Pre-settlement thinking begins among certain circles with Norse connections. The Kensington Stone established as a land marker..ala the "Ley Lines". See England "Ley Lines" or "Canterbury-Ley Lines".
As I understand it, Ley lines are a 20th century idea spurred on by the public availability of survey maps. Any "Ley Lines" are the result of randomness, not order.

Your TCT idea is fun: Chaucer WAS prone to allegory. Ravens, however, were symbolic among non-Norse cultures as well.

These days, I'm less inclined to see any direct Templar connections to NA. Perhaps through the Teutonic or Cistercian orders, if they ever travelled West, since many Templars joined them after their disbandment.

I'm more of the opinion that the Black death took the lives of many Navigators. The "cure" for the Black death (fire) took the records of many trade routes. After the plague, survivors remembered the members of the Trondheim ArchDiocese and the old trading partners, but not the routes to get there. An expedition was assigned the task of reconnecting with these isolated Atlantic isles, including Vinland, which is mentioned in the Vatican records prior to the voyage. The expedition sets off, but never returns, possibly while looking for Vinland and finding NA, leaving a few markers along the defined waterways of the time (I've noticed that a lot of these stones were found in places that were or still are islands. Perhaps any markers left behind were left on islands only, not the mainland of that period?) then getting caught in the growing ice of Hudson's bay or the Arctic Ocean as the little ice age sets in. Marooned, their ships crushed, the expedition (which may have consisted of all kinds of peoples, not just Norsemen) escapes to shore, finds a friendly tribe, and fades into memory and legend, retaining only a few stories and words, some clothing culture, and a flag. Maybe the practice of writing too.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 07:35 PM   #59

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


I wouldnt call the Ley Lines a 20th century invention. If they are anything, they are just a part of the ancient occultic fringe. They go back to the time of Druidism and pagan practices of mysticism. Mysterious lines of power, the standing stones arrayed for miles and miles in thier alignments, stonehenge, etc etc etc...

http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Ley-Line...er-connections

And we know that Canterbury has long been involved with the Ley lines from ancient pagan culture (it is one of the Tri-angle points of Britain). Druids had a sacred site there long before there was a Roman army to conquere it. Other such pagan practices, manifestations such as the "green man", or in later works known as the "green knight" (Arthurian cycles) are a throw back to this paganism and long associated with Canterbury as well...

http://www.canterburygreenman.fsnet....Canterbury.htm

And an astronomer (or ancient mariner) would like very much to know and understand the navigational implications of these Ley Lines. Chaucer, an expert in astrolabes, would have been a very useful asset to anyone wishing to know about them, or keep tabs on what was going on in occultic circles at the time.

But, did anybody ever even go to Canterbury with an astrolabe in the 14th century?...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...sh-Museum.html

As you see in the link, it dates from 1388, and is thought to be the only one made in England in that period. It is highly reasonable that Chaucer himself was the owner, or had this one made personally for the owner. They were exceptionally rare at that time, and Chaucer perhaps one of a small handful who even knew what one was, let alone use it.

And it was dug up at Canterbury. Hmm.

But, who knows. Maybe its all just a coincidence?

Chookie, you remembered something I talked about long ago, and so I decided to come in on this one and make a little splash. I hope I didnt dissapoint. This one is for you, Chookie!

Last edited by Richard Stanbery; May 26th, 2010 at 08:15 PM.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 11:23 PM   #60

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Re: The Kensington Runestone


Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Stanbery View Post
I wouldnt call the Ley Lines a 20th century invention. If they are anything, they are just a part of the ancient occultic fringe. They go back to the time of Druidism and pagan practices of mysticism. Mysterious lines of power, the standing stones arrayed for miles and miles in thier alignments, stonehenge, etc etc etc...

http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Ley-Line...er-connections
Do you have any links demonstrating a ley-line type system prior to the 20th century? I've only found one, and it dates from the late 19th century, so the fringe occult usage you speak of is modern in my mind rather than ancient.

This quote from your link is alarming...
Quote:
But, as I've shown in my previous articles and as I'm about to show, there is enough evidence still in existence- on the ground- that shows that without much of a considered-doubt, they knew. Don't ask me how they knew- but they DID- they simply must have done.


Quote:
Druids had a sacred site there long before there was a Roman army to conquere it. Other such pagan practices, manifestations such as the "green man", or in later works known as the "green knight" (Arthurian cycles) are a throw back to this paganism and long associated with Canterbury as well...

http://www.canterburygreenman.fsnet....Canterbury.htm
The Green Knight may be the Green man; any reference to him at Canterbury or in the tales? Otherwise, why bring him up? What connection might he have to the NA Runestones?

Quote:
And an astronomer (or ancient mariner) would like very much to know and understand the navigational implications of these Ley Lines. Chaucer, an expert in astrolabes, would have been a very useful asset to anyone wishing to know about them, or keep tabs on what was going on in occultic circles at the time.

But, did anybody ever even go to Canterbury with an astrolabe in the 14th century?...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...sh-Museum.html

As you see in the link, it dates from 1388, and is thought to be the only one made in England in that period. It is highly reasonable that Chaucer himself was the owner, or had this one made personally for the owner. They were exceptionally rare at that time, and Chaucer perhaps one of a small handful who even knew what one was, let alone use it.
Ley lines aside - Cool link. Not the Astrolabe Chaucer desrcibes how to use though.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore...astrolabe.aspx

Ok, so an astrolabe was found at Cantebury and Chaucer, an Astrolabe afficionado, wrote Canterbury Tales. Any references/allusions to Astrolabes and "Western" coordinates in his works? Any reference to a Nova Albion? Drake found it in the 16th century, post-Columbus... What he found should probably have been called something Asian, anyway.

Also, quick question to anyone: Who were the predominant clergy/monks in Oxford at the time?

Regarding the Runestones again, I also found this:

The Fletcher Stone, found by Dr. Fletcher of Yarmouth on the SouthWest tip of Nova Scotia in 1812. Apparently there's also another runestone in the area known as the Bayview Runestone, but I haven't heard much about it.
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