Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Ancient History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Ancient History Ancient History Forum - Greece, Rome, Carthage, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and all other civilizations of antiquity, to include Prehistory and Archaeology discussions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old September 2nd, 2017, 09:46 AM   #1
Scholar
 
Joined: Oct 2015
From: Virginia
Posts: 593
Actium


Today is the 2048th anniversary of the "battle" that determined the fate of the Roman world.
What really happened?
Dentatus is offline  
Remove Ads
Old September 2nd, 2017, 10:04 AM   #2
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2015
From: Slovenia
Posts: 3,255

I was asking myself what would have happened if Cleopatra would not have ran away with her part of fleet.
macon is offline  
Old September 2nd, 2017, 11:20 AM   #3
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2015
From: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,733

Quote:
Originally Posted by macon View Post
I was asking myself what would have happened if Cleopatra would not have ran away with her part of fleet.
I think that was the plan though. If the situation gets hard, she is going back to raise more money for the war.

If cleo dies there, then they lose the war. So it would make sense to me that she would turn around.
mariusj is online now  
Old September 2nd, 2017, 11:37 AM   #4
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2015
From: Slovenia
Posts: 3,255

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusj View Post
I think that was the plan though. If the situation gets hard, she is going back to raise more money for the war.

If cleo dies there, then they lose the war. So it would make sense to me that she would turn around.
I think that about 60 quinqueremes also had turned together with her. Could they be a deciding factor if had fighting instead?
macon is offline  
Old September 2nd, 2017, 08:26 PM   #5
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2014
From: Queens, NYC
Posts: 1,044

I think it was Michael Grant, who, many years ago, wrote that Antony and Cleopatra were boxed in and outmaneuvered. They thus decided that Cleopatra would break out and go to Egypt,Antony would hold off the Octavianite navy.
MJuingong is offline  
Old September 3rd, 2017, 04:02 AM   #6
Scholar
 
Joined: Oct 2015
From: Virginia
Posts: 593

Could escape have been their intention?

Antonius had spread his fleet along the Adriatic coast in several squadrons, and Agrippa had defeated several of them in detail; seizing Methone, Patras, Corcyra and Leucas, and allowing Caesar to cross with his army unopposed.

On land, Antonius had been bested in at least two cavalry actions and was having trouble obtaining water and supplies for his army. Worse, his troops were suffering from disease (malaria?) and desertions were beginning, including Domitius Ahenobarbus, Dellius and client kings Amyntas of Galatea, Deiotarus of Paphlagonia and Rhoremetalces of Thrace.

Also Antonius had his ships carry their masts and sails on the day of battle, and took his treasure with him.
Dentatus is offline  
Old January 10th, 2018, 12:05 AM   #7

Dios's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Mar 2017
From: Colorado
Posts: 522

I've read a couple of primary accounts of the battle, and some modern interpretations. Some say Cleopatra skedaddled, some say it was planned. Plutarch, nominally free of Augustinian propaganda, says one of Antony's leaders (Canidius) suggested Cleopatra leave, Cleopatra insisted on fighting but prepared an escape, then "suddenly" took her 60 ships from the rear, plunged through Antony's ships putting them in disarray, & sliced through Octavian's ... Antony followed her out of "love". Plutarch likes Antony & is usually pretty objective. I like Plutarch because he wrote about 70 yrs after Cleopatra died and still had some living sources.

It's clear that the Romans held off firing Antony's ships that remained because they THOUGHT they contained Egyptian treasure. One of the modern interpretations of a planned escape is that it saved the treasure of Egypt.

I don't understand this at all. Does anyone have more info?

I can see some walking-around money to support a navy, by why on Earth would Cleopatra carry the wealth of Egypt into battle? Maybe when they say "treasure" they mean "operating funds"? She had plenty of safe places in Egypt to keep the empire's wealth stored.

Last edited by Dios; January 10th, 2018 at 12:07 AM.
Dios is offline  
Old January 10th, 2018, 02:43 AM   #8
Citizen
 
Joined: Dec 2017
From: Australia
Posts: 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dios View Post
I've read a couple of primary accounts of the battle, and some modern interpretations. Some say Cleopatra skedaddled, some say it was planned. Plutarch, nominally free of Augustinian propaganda, says one of Antony's leaders (Canidius) suggested Cleopatra leave, Cleopatra insisted on fighting but prepared an escape, then "suddenly" took her 60 ships from the rear, plunged through Antony's ships putting them in disarray, & sliced through Octavian's ... Antony followed her out of "love". Plutarch likes Antony & is usually pretty objective. I like Plutarch because he wrote about 70 yrs after Cleopatra died and still had some living sources.
70 years after the death of Cleopatra is closer to Plutarch's birth then when he wrote so I don't know who these living sources would be, That is if by living you mean people who knew Cleopatra and Antony Edit: I see in another thread you name a grandfather of Plutarch here. Personally I find Plutarch very suspect on Antony because Plutarch is writing morality tales (more specifically biographies (and biographers are very much inclined to be sympathetic to their subjects) for moral instruction), this doesn't tarnish the reliability of all his work equally but in my opinion is a particular problem where Antony is concerned.

Plutarch's life of Antony is a tragedy and Antony its tragic hero, for his "fall" to have appropriate moral and dramatic weight it is to be sympthetic, ideally personal and in contrast with a previous nobler self (However the flaws that lead there should always be present) all this and decades of myth making before Plutarch's birth distort his narrative, Augustan propaganda is not the only kind of propaganda to watch out for.

Antony the tragic hero, cautionary tale and larger than life personna replace Antony the out of his depth politician and plodding mediocrity of a general. Finally the very seperation from Roman Republican politics that generally reduces plutarch's bias compared to many other sources (and this is genuinly seriously useful) has a negative side. As a greek born decades after the death of Augustus he just plain doesn't understand Roman Republican politics that well.

Last edited by The second man in Rome; January 10th, 2018 at 02:46 AM.
The second man in Rome is offline  
Old January 10th, 2018, 04:44 AM   #9
Archivist
 
Joined: Oct 2017
From: United States
Posts: 177

I always can't help but feel that everything regarding Ptolomaic Egypt or Alexandrian Egypt is somewhat overblown.. it was a Greek dynasty attempting to distinguish itself with the heraldry and territory of Egypt to a certain extent... and in many ways the entire situation almost just seemed like a simple repeat of the collapse or least decline of many of the City States in Greece just 300 years earlier when threatened by Rome in various contexts.

I think the Ptolomies would of lost 5-10 years later in some other major battle without the dramatic Shakespearean elements presenting themselves... if they had won at Actium, and history would of stayed more or less the same in many respects.
MarsBar is online now  
Old January 10th, 2018, 05:28 AM   #10

Corvidius's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2017
From: Crows nest
Posts: 1,866

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarsBar View Post
I always can't help but feel that everything regarding Ptolomaic Egypt or Alexandrian Egypt is somewhat overblown.. it was a Greek dynasty attempting to distinguish itself with the heraldry and territory of Egypt to a certain extent... and in many ways the entire situation almost just seemed like a simple repeat of the collapse or least decline of many of the City States in Greece just 300 years earlier when threatened by Rome in various contexts.

I think the Ptolomies would of lost 5-10 years later in some other major battle without the dramatic Shakespearean elements presenting themselves... if they had won at Actium, and history would of stayed more or less the same in many respects.
I think that's all true, Ptolemaic Egypt was a corpse waiting to be told it was dead. Though we would have lost one of the great stories in history if it had just fell swiftly in one or two battles, without the personal dramas that have provided so much entertainment down the years.
Corvidius is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Ancient History

Tags
actium, actiun



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Battle of Actium... okamido Ancient History 16 March 15th, 2017 09:41 AM
Cleopatra and Antony win Actium? Salah Speculative History 17 June 28th, 2015 07:50 PM
Battle of Actium-Decisive or not? Mrbsct Ancient History 22 October 8th, 2013 01:14 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.